Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Phoenix » 08 Jan 2012, 09:24

AndreaModa wrote:It's quite simple: a manufacturer is a team which uses it's larger parent company's technology in its car. So for example, Mercedes is a manufacturer, just like Ferrari. McLaren and Caterham, whilst both technically are car manufacturers, neither use their own engines, whilst Caterham are even using the Renault gearboxes, so can't really be considered manufacturer teams. Everyone else is basically a privateer in the literal sense of the word.


I think we could make an exception with McLaren, since their car company is very small and a spinoff of McLaren Group. For comparison, Ferrari is part of Fiat.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Peter » 08 Jan 2012, 12:15

Sutil, to be honest. For a team that needs consistency and experience, as well as money, Bruno Senna probably wouldn't be the best choice. Sutil has all of those traits, and unlike Rubihno, he is under the age of 30, so has a lot of years left.

Then again, Senna would bring to the team a very large amount of money, which they would need considering they've not got one less sponsor with AT&T not renewing their contract. Decisions like this are so hard to make. Williams are thinking long term, but if they flounder in the short term again, then they will lose even more money and talent, and log term won't even matter anymore, and it will just be a fight for survival.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby QuickYoda41 » 08 Jan 2012, 12:20

Even Bruno's main supporter would choose Sutil, that shows how obvious this decision should be.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Peter » 08 Jan 2012, 12:53

QuickYoda41 wrote:Even Bruno's main supporter would choose Sutil, that shows how obvious this decision should be.


Well, it's a very tough decision, to be honest. If I were in Frank's shoes, i'd be stressing over it. Sutil provides experience which will help them over long term growth. Bruno Senna has wads of cash which will help them immediately, but as that money may dry up they might end up floundering if Senna can't lead the team properly. Picking Senna would be either a good or bad decision if he can give them consistent results, help them develop the car, and properly lead the team forward, rather than performing like a rookie. Otherwise, Williams would be genuinely screwed.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Wizzie » 08 Jan 2012, 15:03

And yet again, I bring up the technicalities of the PDVSA contract. I remember fairly well that it was mentioned on here several times that Williams only need to 'consider' Maldonado for he drive so, in theory, they can demote the Reverend to third driver, collect th PDVSA money and then sign BOTH Sutil and Senna. Problem solved :mrgreen:
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby CoopsII » 08 Jan 2012, 21:52

Wizzie wrote:And yet again, I bring up the technicalities of the PDVSA contract. I remember fairly well that it was mentioned on here several times that Williams only need to 'consider' Maldonado for he drive so, in theory, they can demote the Reverend to third driver,

That cant be right can it? They wouldnt have put up with him all season if they didnt have to?
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Wizzie » 08 Jan 2012, 22:03

CoopsII wrote:
Wizzie wrote:And yet again, I bring up the technicalities of the PDVSA contract. I remember fairly well that it was mentioned on here several times that Williams only need to 'consider' Maldonado for he drive so, in theory, they can demote the Reverend to third driver,

That cant be right can it? They wouldnt have put up with him all season if they didnt have to?


Captain Hammer, November 18th wrote:Moving on, some people are claiming that PDVSA's sponsorship of Williams is illegal under Venezuelan law, which states that public money cannot be spent without government approval, and nobody seems to be able to produce the contract between PDVSA and Williams. However, a Venezuelan newspaper has published details of the contract, which reveals two very interesting details: firstly, that PDVSA are paying Williams between twenty and twenty-eight million pounds this year along (which is set to increase to somewhere around thirty million in 2012); and secondly, that PDVSA has an unprecendented level of control within the team - they can nominate a list of drivers to Williams (which must be done by October 15), and Williams are obligated to consider them when assessing their driver line-up for the next year (though they are not obligated to take them if they feel those drivers are not suitable).
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby CoopsII » 08 Jan 2012, 22:19

Holy buckets. Mind you, to be fair, Tuna Pasta didnt do a bad job considering.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Phoenix » 08 Jan 2012, 22:35

Wizzie wrote:
CoopsII wrote:
Wizzie wrote:And yet again, I bring up the technicalities of the PDVSA contract. I remember fairly well that it was mentioned on here several times that Williams only need to 'consider' Maldonado for he drive so, in theory, they can demote the Reverend to third driver,

That cant be right can it? They wouldnt have put up with him all season if they didnt have to?


Captain Hammer, November 18th wrote:Moving on, some people are claiming that PDVSA's sponsorship of Williams is illegal under Venezuelan law, which states that public money cannot be spent without government approval, and nobody seems to be able to produce the contract between PDVSA and Williams. However, a Venezuelan newspaper has published details of the contract, which reveals two very interesting details: firstly, that PDVSA are paying Williams between twenty and twenty-eight million pounds this year along (which is set to increase to somewhere around thirty million in 2012); and secondly, that PDVSA has an unprecendented level of control within the team - they can nominate a list of drivers to Williams (which must be done by October 15), and Williams are obligated to consider them when assessing their driver line-up for the next year (though they are not obligated to take them if they feel those drivers are not suitable).


Oh Holy God. Imagine both Maldonado AND EJ Viso driving for them :lol:
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby QuickYoda41 » 08 Jan 2012, 22:44

Cecotto, Jr?
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Cynon » 09 Jan 2012, 01:26

Viso + Maldonado = Greatest thing Williams would EVER have done in the history of F1. :D :D :D
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby WeirdKerr » 09 Jan 2012, 07:27

Cynon wrote:Viso + Maldonado = Greatest thing Williams would EVER have done in the history of F1. :D :D :D


Ernesto Viso from this crash? http://youtu.be/d-Qt_fRh3W0
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby eurobrun » 09 Jan 2012, 08:19

Yes
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Me wrote:I have no idea why I always think Tony D'Alberto is a mafia member :P
He's from a family of used cars salesmen... which might as well be the mafia Eurobrun :lol:
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby CoopsII » 09 Jan 2012, 18:21

Andrew Benson is tweeting for the BBC that Bruno Senna is circling round the Williams seat now. Its really anyones guess now.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Aerond » 09 Jan 2012, 22:41

CoopsII wrote:Andrew Benson is tweeting for the BBC that Bruno Senna is circling round the Williams seat now. Its really anyones guess now.


I really want Senna to be in Williams. I know many people here don´t see anything in him but I believe with track time he´ll be a good driver to watch. He just needs time.

Now, whoever gets the seat at Williams, there´ll be an interesting number of drivers out there with money AND experience to go after the HRT seat.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby CoopsII » 09 Jan 2012, 23:05

Aerond wrote:I really want Senna to be in Williams. I know many people here don´t see anything in him but I believe with track time he´ll be a good driver to watch. He just needs time.

I think its inviting yet more family comparisons if Senna were to join Williams but I suppose thats something that will only annoy me in the long run. Bruno has charisma, and compared to some German drivers who recently departed Force India, a (small) hint of star quality about him.

I really hope, one way or another, Williams keep it Brazillian for 2012!
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Sunshine_Baby_[IT] » 10 Jan 2012, 00:50

I'll choose Barrichello and Sutil as drivers, Senna as third driver... and I'll leave Maldonado without a seat! ;-)
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby golic_2004 » 10 Jan 2012, 05:59

SPONSOR says Senna has the race seat. http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... s-in-2012/ So the sponsor says. :P
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Ferrim » 10 Jan 2012, 07:43

If this is confirmed, Bruno would do well to change his helmet design. After all, he's racing his own career, not Uncle Ayrton's, and this would be a perfect moment to make the change, because Williams' current livery, while different, it's quite reminiscent of the one they had during the Rothmans days.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Wizzie » 10 Jan 2012, 09:21

Now, unless they're dumping Maldonado, this is a monumentally stupid decision for the team. While the sponsorship money is good and Bruno is a pretty good driver, they need someone who can lead a team which I am confident that Sutil is able to do based on Force India's results for the last two seasons and Maldonado has enough trouble keeping the car on the road to begin with as it is. :lol:
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Klon » 10 Jan 2012, 10:01

Brazilian sources - I think as much as some of us may or may not dislike his opinions, Captain Hammer has said about that enough. Unless we have something by Williams itself, Brazilian news at the moment aren't worth the paper they are printed upon.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Priceless » 10 Jan 2012, 16:28

Klon wrote:Brazilian sources - I think as much as some of us may or may not dislike his opinions, Captain Hammer has said about that enough. Unless we have something by Williams itself, Brazilian news at the moment aren't worth the paper they are printed upon.


Being Brazilian I can attest to that - speculation tends to gain appearances of truth when in the news around here. People here "like to make splashes" - I don't think I can put it better. I've read into the article, and to me that looked like a positive (in the sense of "optimistic") statement from Mr. Batista to the media and means nothing official from neither Bruno nor Williams.

I admit though I'd kind of like to see it happen...
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby eurobrun » 10 Jan 2012, 16:36

Sunshine_Baby_[IT] wrote:I'll choose Barrichello and Sutil as drivers, Senna as third driver... and I'll leave Maldonado without a seat! ;-)


This
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He's from a family of used cars salesmen... which might as well be the mafia Eurobrun :lol:
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby mario » 10 Jan 2012, 18:58

Priceless wrote:
Klon wrote:Brazilian sources - I think as much as some of us may or may not dislike his opinions, Captain Hammer has said about that enough. Unless we have something by Williams itself, Brazilian news at the moment aren't worth the paper they are printed upon.


Being Brazilian I can attest to that - speculation tends to gain appearances of truth when in the news around here. People here "like to make splashes" - I don't think I can put it better. I've read into the article, and to me that looked like a positive (in the sense of "optimistic") statement from Mr. Batista to the media and means nothing official from neither Bruno nor Williams.

I admit though I'd kind of like to see it happen...

I suppose that, given his potential leverage with Williams over the size of the sponsorship package he could offer, Batista might consider himself as a sort of "king maker", as it were, by being able to buy the seat for Bruno. There have also been a few rumours of Embratel staff visiting the headquarters of Williams too - not altogether surprising if Bruno has been talking to the team - but even so it is plausible that various commentators have allowed themselves to get carried away to generate attention for themselves, as you suggest.

Overall, to my mind it would be a major risk for Williams to take Bruno on right now - Maldonado, whilst he may have performed more strongly than some might have expected, was still pretty ragged at times and occasionally allowed that frustration to boil over on track. To pair a driver who has only completed one season with a second driver who has completed just one and a half seasons in effect risks leaving the team without a driver capable of directing the efforts of the team.
That is not to say that doing so would automatically be a disaster - Sauber, although they sometimes struggled, did quite well with Kamui and Perez in the circumstances - but Williams have generally looked for confident drivers to act as a figurehead of the team. If you think about previous Williams drivers, they've included Alan Jones, Keke Rosberg, Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet Sr., Juan Pablo Montoya, Mark Webber - drivers who might have had their flaws but all of whom had strong characters and a sense of purpose about what they did.

Whether any of the drivers currently on the market can offer the team that sort of figurehead around whom they can rally - and given the major changes going on amongst the senior management they need a strong driver more than ever - is debatable, but to my mind it'd be placing a lot of responsibility and pressure on either Maldonado or Bruno if they were put in that position.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby DonTirri » 11 Jan 2012, 05:58

Williams is starting to remind me more and more of Lotus (The original).
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby FullMetalJack » 11 Jan 2012, 08:24

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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby BlindCaveSalamander » 11 Jan 2012, 09:08



Oh, of course! How could we possibly forget!
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby FullMetalJack » 11 Jan 2012, 09:14

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:


Oh, of course! How could we possibly forget!


I don't know, I forgot until today. Surely it can save his career.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Pointrox » 11 Jan 2012, 09:24

redbulljack14 wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:


Oh, of course! How could we possibly forget!


I don't know, I forgot until today. Surely it can save his career.

Rubens is saved, that is :lol:
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Priceless » 14 Jan 2012, 12:46

I'd like to ask for some opinions...

How would this affect the odds for the Williams seat?
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Captain Hammer » 14 Jan 2012, 13:35

It's already being discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4135
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby eagleash » 17 Jan 2012, 07:24

F1 mole & JS both say that an announcement is rumoured for tomorrow & is (again) rumoured to be the signing of Senna. Stress...... rumoured.

Can't see them ditching Maldonaldo but you never can tell with F1 or indeed Williams, but is this the end for Rubens or might he yet pitch up at HRT?
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby FullMetalJack » 17 Jan 2012, 07:27

NOOOOOOO! Williams are screwed with a lineup of Senna and Maldonado. Please don't let it happen.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby East Londoner » 17 Jan 2012, 07:33

It's a sign of the impending Apocalypse, if Williams have two paydrivers from tomorrow onwards. This makes me very sad :(
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby FullMetalJack » 17 Jan 2012, 08:39

Barrichello still holds hope for a 2012 drive.

PLEASE FRANK!!!! Please renew this man's contract, despite being nearly 40, he's still a better prospect for the future than Senna.

Basically, I think Bruno Senna is crap
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby QuickYoda41 » 17 Jan 2012, 09:21

Well, if Williams don't want Sutil because of the Lux-gate, then yeah, it should be Barrichello. (As probably Alguersuari wouldn't take the seat anyway.)
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby mario » 17 Jan 2012, 09:21

eagleash wrote:F1 mole & JS both say that an announcement is rumoured for tomorrow & is (again) rumoured to be the signing of Senna. Stress...... rumoured.

Can't see them ditching Maldonaldo but you never can tell with F1 or indeed Williams, but is this the end for Rubens or might he yet pitch up at HRT?

Whilst it would be somewhat unfortunate for Williams to have to run two pay drivers, right now you have to assume that, if this deal goes ahead, this is more about survival than performance after the loss of AT&T and less money from FOM.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby Peter » 17 Jan 2012, 09:24

redbulljack14 wrote:Barrichello still holds hope for a 2012 drive.

PLEASE FRANK!!!! Please renew this man's contract, despite being nearly 40, he's still a better prospect for the future than Senna.

Basically, I think Bruno Senna is crap


Replace Barichello with Sutil, and you'd make a lot more sense. Rubens is into his forties now, how many more years does he have left? Barely. Bruno isn't even 30 as yet, plus he is bringing in a lot of money. He's the better option for the future, I think. Most people seem to want Rubens to stay because they want to see him compete in 20 seasons in F1.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby FullMetalJack » 17 Jan 2012, 09:45

Peter wrote:Replace Barichello with Sutil, and you'd make a lot more sense. Rubens is into his forties now, how many more years does he have left? Barely.


Maybe a few years, we are having drivers return in their forties, Schumi and PDLR.

And plus Rubens doesn't really have much of a future, I was just trying to defend my preference for Barrichello racing next season.
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Re: Senna,Barrichello,Sutil,Bottas

Postby mario » 17 Jan 2012, 09:48

Peter wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:Barrichello still holds hope for a 2012 drive.

PLEASE FRANK!!!! Please renew this man's contract, despite being nearly 40, he's still a better prospect for the future than Senna.

Basically, I think Bruno Senna is crap


Replace Barichello with Sutil, and you'd make a lot more sense. Rubens is into his forties now, how many more years does he have left? Barely. Bruno isn't even 30 as yet, plus he is bringing in a lot of money. He's the better option for the future, I think. Most people seem to want Rubens to stay because they want to see him compete in 20 seasons in F1.

Sentimentality may play a part in our choice of Rubens for the seat for some, and it cannot be denied that Rubens is unlikely to remain competitive for much longer given his age whereas Bruno Senna in theory has a longer potential career. However, personally I would have said that, were it not for the uncertainty surrounding him because of Lux's court case, Sutil would be the better candidate for reasons previously discussed. I also hope that this does not open up some divisions within the team given the reports by the BBC that Rubens was the favoured choice of the mechanics at Williams, but the senior management were not keen on him because of his critical remarks about the team.
That said, if Williams are going down the route of signing Bruno Senna they'll have to handle things very carefully - the combination of the Senna name and Williams team, particularly in the wake of the recent celebrations of Ayrton's career, is still something of a sensitive topic.
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
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