F1Rejects.com

by **nome66** » 08 Apr 2012, 09:52

To be brutally honest, I think that Bahar should just give up Renault's slot completely........
and give it to Mazda. We need a Rotary F1 car. DO IT NOW. i found some chassis on RacecarsDirect and i know where to get some motors....... anyone loan me 22million real quick? gotta pay the pit crew n stuff

by **mario** » 08 Apr 2012, 10:04

JeremyMcClean wrote:You call Toyota successful? It's like saying Johnny Dumfries was a successful driver!

At least as an independent team Toyota did last reasonably long - seven years - and Toyota's financial support for Williams came at a crucial time, given that Williams were reeling from the loss of BMW (which in retrospect Frank Williams did say he regretted deeply). So, all in all there are a few things to thank Toyota for...

nome66 wrote:To be brutally honest, I think that Bahar should just give up Renault's slot completely........
and give it to Mazda. We need a Rotary F1 car. DO IT NOW. i found some chassis on RacecarsDirect and i know where to get some motors....... anyone loan me 22million real quick? gotta pay the pit crew n stuff

You do know that rotary engines have been banned since 1982? In fact, thinking about it, when was the last time that rotary engines were used in a major racing series? I know that they were used for a while in the ALMS, but they seem to have dropped out of use there in 2006: I think that Mazda has even dropped the rotary engine from its road car division (the RX-8 has been discontinued because of emissions regulations).

by **BlindCaveSalamander** » 08 Apr 2012, 10:17

JeremyMcClean wrote:You call Toyota successful? It's like saying Johnny Dumfries was a successful driver!

Yeah, that was kind of what I was going for. I said that they, even when combined with Honda, Mercedes, Jaguar, and BMW, attained less success than Renault's first incarnation did alone. Hundreds and hundreds of millions down the drain for what? 2 wins? Both of which were fortuitous? That was all?

Website · by **Wizzie** » 08 Apr 2012, 10:19

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:You call Toyota successful? It's like saying Johnny Dumfries was a successful driver!

Yeah, that was kind of what I was going for. I said that they, even when combined with Honda, Mercedes, Jaguar, and BMW, attained less success than Renault's first incarnation did alone. Hundreds and hundreds of millions down the drain for what? 2 wins? Both of which were fortuitous? That was all?

Toyota didn't even manage that. They blew $500 million a year at the project and only got a handful of podiums in return :lol:

by **nome66** » 08 Apr 2012, 10:20

You do know that rotary engines have been banned since 1982? In fact, thinking about it, when was the last time that rotary engines were used in a major racing series? I know that they were used for a while in the ALMS, but they seem to have dropped out of use there in 2006: I think that Mazda has even dropped the rotary engine from its road car division (the RX-8 has been discontinued because of emissions regulations).

they have a works team in Grand-Am. also Patrick Dempsey's face time with his Mazda-based team helps a bit.
plus there's the whole Star-Mazda series which is rotary-based. that kind of gives us a taste of an Open wheel prospect i guess.

by **BlindCaveSalamander** » 08 Apr 2012, 10:26

mario wrote:I think that Mazda has even dropped the rotary engine from its road car division (the RX-8 has been discontinued because of emissions regulations).

Yeah, but I think they're going to come up with a successor to the RX-8 that will meet emissions regulations, to try and counter the Toyota 86.

Wizzie wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:You call Toyota successful? It's like saying Johnny Dumfries was a successful driver!

Yeah, that was kind of what I was going for. I said that they, even when combined with Honda, Mercedes, Jaguar, and BMW, attained less success than Renault's first incarnation did alone. Hundreds and hundreds of millions down the drain for what? 2 wins? Both of which were fortuitous? That was all?

Toyota didn't even manage that. They blew $500 million a year at the project and only got a handful of podiums in return

Exactly, Honda spent 2 thirds of their time in F1 with an absolute lemon and still got more out of their effort than Toyota did in 8 years!

by **Boomstick** » 08 Apr 2012, 10:57

mario wrote:
Boomstick wrote:Oh I will bounce off the walls big time if there is a Alfa Romeo team ....with joy that is!

(The only team I could ditch Williams for)

You're going to have to keep on dreaming about that - bear in mind that Alfa Romeo is part of the Fiat group, and as Jeremy Clarkson once said on the relationship between Alfa Romeo and Ferrari "Making an Alfa Romeo that is faster than a Ferrari would be more sacrilegious than vomiting on the Pope".

On a serious note, it does beg the question of who the team might want to take over as title sponsor - if things are going as badly wrong as we think over at Group Lotus, it'd make sense to ditch the Lotus name fairly quickly to avoid being tarnished by association. As Backmarker points out, whilst the Enstone team will probably survive, albeit under a different name, the teams in the lower open wheel series or sports cars (including Kolles's team, who were due to run a Group Lotus branded LMP2 car) could take a much larger financial hit, or collapse altogether.

Well Ferrari did grow out of Alfa Romeo to start with....and any "Alfa" team would use a Ferrari motor, just like the 8c....so a real Alfa Romeo? No

Still I honestly wonder what was going through Enzo's head when Fiat purchased Alfa in 1986...the Alfa Romeo F1 team had withdrawn a year before at Adelaide, revenge? But then Alfa did have this wierd tie up with the Ligier team, but they got ditched for the BMW megatron motor?

I suppose at that time Ferrari where on the ropes a bit, and the worst case scenario for Enzo would be Alfa Romeo doing well. Still that crappy Turbo V8 was too thirsty to be a problem to him :-/

Website · by **Wizzie** » 08 Apr 2012, 11:02

Boomstick wrote:Still I honestly wonder what was going through Enzo's head when Fiat purchased Alfa in 1986...the Alfa Romeo F1 team had withdrawn a year before at Adelaide, revenge? But then Alfa did have this wierd tie up with the Ligier team, but they got ditched for the BMW megatron motor?

Ligier WOULD have gotten the Alfa engines if Rene Arnoux had kept his bloody mouth shut :lol:

by **eurobrun** » 08 Apr 2012, 11:04

Wizzie wrote:
Boomstick wrote:Still I honestly wonder what was going through Enzo's head when Fiat purchased Alfa in 1986...the Alfa Romeo F1 team had withdrawn a year before at Adelaide, revenge? But then Alfa did have this wierd tie up with the Ligier team, but they got ditched for the BMW megatron motor?

Ligier WOULD have gotten the Alfa engines if Rene Arnoux had kept his bloody mouth shut

And all I can say to that is bullsh*t

by **F1000X** » 08 Apr 2012, 17:41

So does this mean we could see a major (or minor) livery change this season?

by **mario** » 08 Apr 2012, 18:52

Boomstick wrote:
mario wrote:
Boomstick wrote:Oh I will bounce off the walls big time if there is a Alfa Romeo team ....with joy that is!

(The only team I could ditch Williams for)

You're going to have to keep on dreaming about that - bear in mind that Alfa Romeo is part of the Fiat group, and as Jeremy Clarkson once said on the relationship between Alfa Romeo and Ferrari "Making an Alfa Romeo that is faster than a Ferrari would be more sacrilegious than vomiting on the Pope".

On a serious note, it does beg the question of who the team might want to take over as title sponsor - if things are going as badly wrong as we think over at Group Lotus, it'd make sense to ditch the Lotus name fairly quickly to avoid being tarnished by association. As Backmarker points out, whilst the Enstone team will probably survive, albeit under a different name, the teams in the lower open wheel series or sports cars (including Kolles's team, who were due to run a Group Lotus branded LMP2 car) could take a much larger financial hit, or collapse altogether.

Well Ferrari did grow out of Alfa Romeo to start with....and any "Alfa" team would use a Ferrari motor, just like the 8c....so a real Alfa Romeo? No

Still I honestly wonder what was going through Enzo's head when Fiat purchased Alfa in 1986...the Alfa Romeo F1 team had withdrawn a year before at Adelaide, revenge? But then Alfa did have this wierd tie up with the Ligier team, but they got ditched for the BMW megatron motor?

I suppose at that time Ferrari where on the ropes a bit, and the worst case scenario for Enzo would be Alfa Romeo doing well. Still that crappy Turbo V8 was too thirsty to be a problem to him :-/

Whilst it is true that the Alfa Romeo branded team withdrew in 1985, it could be argued that Alfa Romeo had effectively withdrawn in 1983 - the last two years of the F1 team's operations were under the management of Euroracing (although Autodelta, Alfa's racing subsidiary, continued supplying engines, Euroracing were designing and manufacturing the rest of the car).
As for Enzo Ferrari, he probably would not have been too concerned about Alfa Romeo - given that Alfa Romeo's finances were pretty poor at the time, their racing programs weren't really properly funded, plus the turbo V8 (which never really made sense at the time, or indeed now) was, as you say, far too thirsty for a fuel limited formula.

by **Backmarker** » 08 Apr 2012, 19:59

Spotted on autosport, an image that explains the Lotus mess in an easy to understand way:

EDIT: Darn, forums don't stretch for images, so here's a link: http://i.imgur.com/VvCTy.jpg

by **eurobrun** » 08 Apr 2012, 20:07

Backmarker wrote:Spotted on autosport, an image that explains the Lotus mess in an easy to understand way:

EDIT: Darn, forums don't stretch for images, so here's a link: http://i.imgur.com/VvCTy.jpg

That is absolutely epic.

Anyway, just bring Benetton back with their 1989 livery.

by **nome66** » 08 Apr 2012, 23:29

or the benetton with the Ford TEC v6.
anyways, i might make a flowchart like that for the Renault F1 team just for giggles.
see you guys in 45 min.

by **tzerof1** » 10 Apr 2012, 09:40

eurobrun wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
Boomstick wrote:Still I honestly wonder what was going through Enzo's head when Fiat purchased Alfa in 1986...the Alfa Romeo F1 team had withdrawn a year before at Adelaide, revenge? But then Alfa did have this wierd tie up with the Ligier team, but they got ditched for the BMW megatron motor?

Ligier WOULD have gotten the Alfa engines if Rene Arnoux had kept his bloody mouth shut

And all I can say to that is bullsh*t

good to see a little of James Hunt's brutal honesty working its way in. But in all seriousness what the hell was Dany Bahar playing at, expanding the Group Lotus name across motorsport so rapidly, with seemingly no regard to the future implications of the expenditure of hundreds of millions(perhaps billions?) that it would have on the company. He should have realised that it wasn't smart to do given the current global economy and should have been a lot more cautious about it. But now, as mario mentioned earlier, the teams being sponsored by Group Lotus in the smaller categories will be endangered because of it. It all seems like something that could have been averted. Also, it makes me quite annoyed that he went through all that trouble to fight Tony Fernandes and his team that was seen by many to be worthy of continuing the Lotus legacy, for usage rights of the Lotus name, only to back out now. Also on a related note, according to this article (albeit a bit on the old side)http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-lotus-sale-wont-impact-racing-plans-working-on-engine-supply/, the changes won't have any effect on their IndyCar program.

Website · by **Wizzie** » 10 Apr 2012, 10:10

tzerof1 wrote:
eurobrun wrote:
Wizzie wrote:Ligier WOULD have gotten the Alfa engines if Rene Arnoux had kept his bloody mouth shut

And all I can say to that is bullsh*t

good to see a little of James Hunt's brutal honesty working its way in. But in all seriousness what the hell was Dany Bahar playing at, expanding the Group Lotus name across motorsport so rapidly, with seemingly no regard to the future implications of the expenditure of hundreds of millions(perhaps billions?) that it would have on the company.

The company? Dude, he took the entire Malaysian car industry to hell with him :lol:

by **Stramala** » 10 Apr 2012, 10:13

It sounds a lot like Bahahahahar followed the Scuderia Alitalia business expansion model...

by **AndreaModa** » 10 Apr 2012, 10:18

kostas22 wrote:It sounds a lot like Bahahahahar followed the Scuderia Alitalia business expansion model...

He's been following the F1RWRS! Maybe that Group Lotus entry in the 2012 season wasn't dr-baker after all... :lol:

by **Stramala** » 10 Apr 2012, 10:21

AndreaModa wrote:
kostas22 wrote:It sounds a lot like Bahahahahar followed the Scuderia Alitalia business expansion model...

He's been following the F1RWRS! Maybe that Group Lotus entry in the 2012 season wasn't dr-baker after all...

Conspiracy theorists, I think you know the drill by now.

by **tzerof1** » 10 Apr 2012, 13:06

Wizzie wrote:The company? Dude, he took the entire Malaysian car industry to hell with him

Very true. Wonder what Alex Yoong has to say about this :lol:

by **mario** » 10 Apr 2012, 19:42

tzerof1 wrote: good to see a little of James Hunt's brutal honesty working its way in. But in all seriousness what the hell was Dany Bahar playing at, expanding the Group Lotus name across motorsport so rapidly, with seemingly no regard to the future implications of the expenditure of hundreds of millions(perhaps billions?) that it would have on the company. He should have realised that it wasn't smart to do given the current global economy and should have been a lot more cautious about it. But now, as mario mentioned earlier, the teams being sponsored by Group Lotus in the smaller categories will be endangered because of it. It all seems like something that could have been averted. Also, it makes me quite annoyed that he went through all that trouble to fight Tony Fernandes and his team that was seen by many to be worthy of continuing the Lotus legacy, for usage rights of the Lotus name, only to back out now. Also on a related note, according to this article (albeit a bit on the old side)http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-lotus-sale-wont-impact-racing-plans-working-on-engine-supply/, the changes won't have any effect on their IndyCar program.

Bahar's decision to spray sponsorship cash around like water was probably because he felt overly confident with the belief that the Malaysian government would continue propping up Proton, so he was probably assuming that the Malaysian government would eventually pick up the bill for all the sponsorship deals and new models that he was proposing. Now that it looks like the funding taps have been turned off, it is surely only a matter of time before Bahar's hubris tears Group Lotus apart - and considering the size of the loans Proton has made to it, perhaps taking Proton down with him...

by **DanielPT** » 10 Apr 2012, 21:17

As soon as Bahahahar announced his ludicrous plans for Group Lotus the writing was on the wall. The enormous quantity of cars he presented without having established models selling and supporting the whole business could only end this way. To make success at the scale Bahahahar wanted, one can only succeed if a) it is a new product that becomes fashionable or b) his product is miles above the competition. Neither was the case. You only need to think of Red Bull, in case of a) and Apple, in case of b) and in both it took many years to reach where they are now and a base solid business. Car manufacturing is very much established and to make a name for themselves, well, you need to look no further than McLaren... Bahahahar, it's game over for you.

by **dinizintheoven** » 10 Apr 2012, 23:18

Backmarker wrote:Spotted on autosport, an image that explains the Lotus mess in an easy to understand way:
EDIT: Darn, forums don't stretch for images, so here's a link: http://i.imgur.com/VvCTy.jpg

I can sum up the "Lotus" mess far more succinctly.

Expect this piece of land to shake violently, caused by the great man spinning in his grave. Or, likely as not, he will jump right out of it and chop Dany Bahar's head off with a sharpened side skirt from the Lotus 79.

by **AndreaModa** » 11 Apr 2012, 00:06

dinizintheoven wrote:Expect this piece of land to shake violently, caused by the great man spinning in his grave. Or, likely as not, he will jump right out of it and chop Dany Bahar's head off with a sharpened side skirt from the Lotus 79.

Great Aunt Nelly would be proud! :lol:

by **Phoenix** » 11 Apr 2012, 02:36

I never thought I would write this, or even think this... When I was planning to enter this forum as an user, before it was known that Lotus would return to F1, I thought my initial sig would read something like: "Rooting for a return of the Lotus name to F1", since I was always a big fan of Lotus and Colin Chapman. But, now I only have this to say...

Let the Lotus name die again, and let it rest on the history books instead of dragging their name on the mud for longer. Forever. To whoever this applies (see Tyrrell, Brabham, BRM). They're just a part of the past and they have such a rich legacy they don't deserve to be ressucitated only for things like these to happen (anyone remembers the BRM sports car fiasco of the 1990s?)

by **Backmarker** » 11 Apr 2012, 02:41

dinizintheoven wrote:Expect this piece of land to shake violently, caused by the great man spinning in his grave.

Perhaps they could replace Raikkonen's rear axle with Chapman's rotating corpse?

by **Phoenix** » 12 Apr 2012, 02:23

Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886

by **East Londoner** » 12 Apr 2012, 03:02

Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886

FACT: Lotus Cars believes that Sniff Petrol is a proper news website! :lol:

Dear God, I haven't laughed so hard. What a pathetic showing! :lol:

by **tristan1117** » 12 Apr 2012, 03:11

East Londoner wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886

FACT: Lotus Cars believes that Sniff Petrol is a proper news website!

Dear God, I haven't laughed so hard. What a pathetic showing!

All I can say is Baharharharharhar! :lol:

by **Shadaza** » 12 Apr 2012, 04:16

I have never read such aggresive hateful posts from any "PR" company ever. Whilst I didn't think it was right for Caterham to be called Lotus at least they didn't make their dirty laundry public like that. Disgraceful.

by **solarcold** » 12 Apr 2012, 05:36

This is a pure shame. I will never forgive Lotus their agressiveness towards Tony Fernandes, who is 10 times more passionate about the sport. After leaving him without the name he'd returned and leaving them without nearly no chance to be competitive - they laugh at Caterham's titanic effort to progress? Sorry, Lotus, your idiotism is unforgivable. It's an agony. Agonising attempts to change the focus of people's attention.
Want to know what I hope for most of all? I hope this team gets renamed. It doesn't deserve to wear the Lotus name. This team puts Formula 1 into disrepute and needs to get punished.

by **Faustus** » 12 Apr 2012, 06:07

This is a press release by Group Lotus, not the-team-formerly-known-as-Renault-Benetton-Toleman, right? I wonder what Genii and Eric Boullier think about this idiotic and ridiculous public statement.

by **dr-baker** » 12 Apr 2012, 06:08

There is a famous phrase on these forums: "Autosport or it didn't happen." Well, it happened. It is quite something as I believe it is rare for Autosport to reproduce in full any team's press statement. It seems to have drawn attention. But not all publicity is good publicity, and this is a good example. As I have recently posted, I still consider the Enstone team to be Renault, not Lotus. I can get used to Marussia not being Virgin. I had no problems with any of Jordan/Force India's name changes, or any other team name change. But to me, Lotus refers more to Caterham than Renault. Maybe it is because no name has reverted from one team to another in consecutive seasons before. Maybe it ought to be forbidden to prevent situations like this from arising. And I don't care if they try downplaying it with humour. At least on here, it already seems like any attempt at humour has gone wrong, as the posts below the statement on Facebook seem to confirm.

by **AndreaModa** » 12 Apr 2012, 06:14

It's a monumental cock-up, I can't think of anyone who in their right minds would back Group Lotus after this. I don't mean the Enstone-based team, just the Group Lotus company.

The fall-out from this I suspect will be quite far-reaching. This is just the beginning.

by **Faustus** » 12 Apr 2012, 06:15

This simply proves that there is definitely something to what Tony Fernandes and Joe Saward have been posting and tweeting lately, otherwise why bother denying it?

by **mario** » 12 Apr 2012, 06:54

Faustus wrote:This is a press release by Group Lotus, not the-team-formerly-known-as-Renault-Benetton-Toleman, right? I wonder what Genii and Eric Boullier think about this idiotic and ridiculous public statement.

Especially since some of the comments that Group Lotus seem to run counter to the comments that Lopez made when he announced that the sponsorship deal with Group Lotus was ending. Back on April 6th Lopez announced that the Lotus team had bought out Group Lotus's option over their team:

AUTOSPORT understands that Genii owner Gerard Lopez recently agreed a deal for the title sponsorship deal, which was originally put together in 2010, to be cancelled, as well as an old option that Proton had to buy 50 per cent of the team annulled.

Speaking about the situation, Lopez told AUTOSPORT: "The sponsorship agreement and the obligations of Lotus have been terminated. There is no option from Group Lotus to buy into F1 now - that option was taken over by us. There was one, but we have taken it over now."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98628

Now, today we have Group Lotus claiming that:

...Proton retains the rights to purchase 10% of the F1 team. Another 10% share option will be activated if the team default on their loan obligations with Proton.

OK, in one instance we are talking about Group Lotus and in the other Proton, but the point remains that one side claims that it has a right to buy into the team, and the other side claims to have bought them out. It doesn't quite fit together, does it - and more awkwardly, Group Lotus's statement could be seen as accusing Lopez of spreading false rumours, considering that it was his recent statement that his team was cancelling their deal with Group Lotus sparked off the rumours.

by **Backmarker** » 12 Apr 2012, 08:02

Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886

...the hell did I just read? It seems Group Lotus is having a nervous break down on the internet.

by **Ataxia** » 12 Apr 2012, 08:52

Phoenix wrote:Slightly related to all this... I just couldn't help myself but post it here for the pure LOL value. Includes somnething that might make Captain Hammer very happy... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&l=da3676510f&id=135849009792886

Good god, they're REALLY paranoid. To personify them, it's like someone shivering in a foetal position reciting 'We're still in business, we're still in F1'. To air your problems over Facebook is something else as well. They've chosen the one medium worse than a flock of journalists.

Well, Genii disagree with the ownership option. And I'm more tempted to believe them, seeing as they're the ones that own the team.

Website · by **Wizzie** » 12 Apr 2012, 08:56

I think it's safe to say Danny Bahar and his merry men have done the impossible and beaten Felipe Massa to early ROTY favouritism :lol:

by **Ataxia** » 12 Apr 2012, 09:03

One more point that I've just remembered...

Gerard Lopez was linked a few weeks ago with purchasing Group Lotus.

So a) Why would Group Lotus give him a loan if he's possibly going to buy the company?
and b) Do Group Lotus actually HAVE the money to give him a loan?

This is completely befuddling...and seeing as (according to Lopez) the Unilever and Microsoft deals are quite large financially, does he really need that money?

I need a lie-down.

F1Rejects.com

Who is online