2012 comment: Schumacher's Pirelli complaints

[Klon]

It sometimes seems like Pirelli is the only entity in F1 that actually seems to give a damn about the fans.

That is because they are new - in 5-10 years they will have learnt what men like Bernie Ecclestone know for some time now: that 99% of fans, yours truly included, are ungrateful hypocrites and should under no circumstances be listened to.

[slopps]

I'm sorry, but if you are against these tyres because they limit the full potential of these cars then you probably should also be against:

1 - The electronic aids ban, because with them, these cars would almost fly.
2 - The current limited wings, you know, because they are limited in order to keep the cars together.
3 - DRS and KERS which are gimmicks to aid overtaking and do make the race more artificial.
4 - The engines and transmissions having to last several races. How much faster the cars would be if not having this constraint?
5 - The Aero appendices ban. Their absence limit the way cars work the air flow.
6 - The testing ban. Teams can't develop their cars to the true potential because they cannot fully test new parts on current conditions.
7 - The Flexible aerodynamic parts and ground effect bans. Can you imagine the cornering speed?
8 - The Blown diffuser ban. See above.

the difference is....none of those things youve listed prevented the driver from driving to his limits, as well as the cars....
none of those things youve listed stopped a driver from pushing to the edge of his limits. thats the point.

[Wizzie]

I'm sorry, but if you are against these tyres because they limit the full potential of these cars then you probably should also be against:

1 - The electronic aids ban, because with them, these cars would almost fly.
2 - The current limited wings, you know, because they are limited in order to keep the cars together.
3 - DRS and KERS which are gimmicks to aid overtaking and do make the race more artificial.
4 - The engines and transmissions having to last several races. How much faster the cars would be if not having this constraint?
5 - The Aero appendices ban. Their absence limit the way cars work the air flow.
6 - The testing ban. Teams can't develop their cars to the true potential because they cannot fully test new parts on current conditions.
7 - The Flexible aerodynamic parts and ground effect bans. Can you imagine the cornering speed?
8 - The Blown diffuser ban. See above.

the difference is....none of those things youve listed prevented the driver from driving to his limits, as well as the cars....
none of those things youve listed stopped a driver from pushing to the edge of his limits. thats the point.

But, on the other side of the coin, one can easily say the tyres are pushing the drives to their limits of being able to drive consistently, sympathetically and intelligently.

[Frentzen127]

I suppose it all boils down to what you define as 'the limit'.
And the limit is never imposed by the drivers, but rather the machinery and the conditions they face. To my mind, this is in no way any different.
The limit Schumacher had in 2004 is not different than the limit Maldonado had to deal with last race, or the one Larini had in the 1989 Canadian grand prix, or Frentzen at the 1997 San Marino grand prix.
It is always making as much as possible out of the given circumstances. It is the driver's duty to adapt to the circumstances, not the other way around. Otherwise we may as well build domes over the circuits so that nothing unforeseeable can occur and the circumstances always remain unchanged.

[DanielPT]

I'm sorry, but if you are against these tyres because they limit the full potential of these cars then you probably should also be against:

1 - The electronic aids ban, because with them, these cars would almost fly.
2 - The current limited wings, you know, because they are limited in order to keep the cars together.
3 - DRS and KERS which are gimmicks to aid overtaking and do make the race more artificial.
4 - The engines and transmissions having to last several races. How much faster the cars would be if not having this constraint?
5 - The Aero appendices ban. Their absence limit the way cars work the air flow.
6 - The testing ban. Teams can't develop their cars to the true potential because they cannot fully test new parts on current conditions.
7 - The Flexible aerodynamic parts and ground effect bans. Can you imagine the cornering speed?
8 - The Blown diffuser ban. See above.

the difference is....none of those things youve listed prevented the driver from driving to his limits, as well as the cars....
none of those things youve listed stopped a driver from pushing to the edge of his limits. thats the point.

That is a bit arguable and I am with frentzen127 on this one... If driving to a driver limits include driving to the human limit then I am afraid all those above influence that, since in no way the car is made to take humans outside their limits. And they are not close to do that any more (perhaps with ground effect and such). Remember group B rally cars? Those cars were said to going beyond human limits in reflexes since the acceleration was so brutal it took out time for the driver to react to the next corner. If you consider driving to the car limits, then I am afraid they are doing that already. Car limits change from era to era and the drivers will still reach that no matter what. But I can understand your point. Even in that case I am afraid that 6 may prevent drivers from reaching 'their limits' in a way that they cannot practice their driving to the point of perfection due to the absence of track time. In my mind, that absence is the thing that is hurting Michael Schumacher the most. Take Hamilton, for instance, put a car on his hands and he will pound fast laps after fast laps regardless the machinery. Button, on the other hand, can be a driver that, if given enough track time, will iron out any problems with the car and setting it up to the point where he can match Hamilton. The point is, racing drivers are so competitive that no matter what machinery and how it behaves, hell you could given then those pesky licence-less cars, that they will drive the wheels off it. To the limits, no doubt.

[dr-baker]

Ultimately, does it matter whether "the limit" is car-limited or driver-limited, just so long as there is a limit that is being reached? That's what this debate seems to be boiling down to. To be honest, so long as the limit either way is being reached, and we see the fastest car-driver combination winning overall, does it matter which limited the ultimate performance of the other?

[DanielPT]

Ultimately, does it matter whether "the limit" is car-limited or driver-limited, just so long as there is a limit that is being reached? That's what this debate seems to be boiling down to. To be honest, so long as the limit either way is being reached, and we see the fastest car-driver combination winning overall, does it matter which limited the ultimate performance of the other?

No. That is why I think the complain about the tyres 'limiting' the drivers has no real argumentation basis. If it makes the race more artificial or not, it is a whole another thing...

[AndreaModa]

I've just watched some highlights from the 1980 Monaco GP on the BBC website, and watching Reutemann, Laffite et al pootle around in the last few laps reminded me of this discussion. It was plainly obvious that none of them were pushing. Only Piquet was because he was in third and had a chance at closing down on Laffite for second. The point being, that historically, as has already been pointed out, it hasn't been a pedal to the metal balls out dash for the whole race distance. I think people need to stop getting so hooked up over the fact that drivers aren't achieving that. Arguably they never have, and it's just been more pronounced in the refuelling era because of the lighter cars.

[slopps]

Q: (Cedric Voisard - Le Figaro) Lewis and Mark - because Michael expressed himself about it - Mark, you said that the public did enjoy the first five races. Lewis, you said, regarding the rules and the tyre situation, we are facing the same challenge, but, apart from that, do you enjoy driving within those rules? Can you extract 100 percent of the car and can you express your talents 100 percent?
MW: The way the races have run in the last few years is different to previous years. In the era where we had pit stops with refuelling, the races were extremely aggressive. Obviously qualifying for the whole race, basically, pushing to make optimum strategies work and make sure that you’re hitting the lap times with the weight of the car, with the fuel that you have at the time, so whether you are on a two- or three-stop strategy or whatever. And then we went to no refuelling, so already the phase of the racing changed a little bit, in terms of a little bit of endurance aspect started to come into it, in terms of driving style and pacing yourself a little bit more, probably. And then we had the change with the Pirellis and that’s probably been the biggest change in driver technique and style that I can remember, certainly in my career and I’ve done a few Grands Prix. There are certain races - a huge majority of races - that of course even when you’ve won - I’ve won one race on Pirellis - but even when the winners are winning of course they are not driving at 100 percent and that’s just the way it is, because you can’t. You need to get the car to the end and produce the best lap times that you can for the duration of the race. That’s the way it is now. I still enjoy driving a Formula One car, I still love working with the engineers, driving the most amazing tracks against some great opposition. I enjoy that part of it but we always have to change, we always have to evolve as the technical side of the sport changes, and there’s always going to be nicer ways to… Personally, I enjoyed the sprint races and the refuelling, probably all of the drivers did, but the racing was not super-exciting. It was more precise, you had to be more precise, you had to be more on the limit and really really feeling the car for the whole two hours, but that’s not how it is now. We have a different set of challenges and that’s what we’ve got to do.

[AndreaModa]

And that response from Mark Webber pretty much sums up this entire discussion. Prior to the end of refuelling and these Pirelli tyres, races were sprints with little endurance aspect. Now they've reverted to what they were prior to refuelling, and there's only one driver in the field who raced during that period, and at that point he was still very much learning the sport and can't really be described as being experienced in that forte. Therefore as usual, the idiotic journalists are asking stupid questions to drivers who really can't compare the two types of racing. Of course Mark, and most other drivers from his era will enjoy the sprint-type races, because that's what they've grown up with and got experienced to, and tailored their driving styles to. A better person to ask would be a relative rookie who also has experience of refuelling. Someone like Grosjean would be perfect in this respect. Now, as for the spectators and fans, you either like it, and enjoy the racing, or you don't, and you just put up with it. We all have our pet hates about the sport, but there's no need for us to all keep moaning about them, otherwise we wouldn't have any time to talk about anything else related to F1!

[Frentzen127]

We have a different set of challenges and that’s what we’ve got to do.

Mark said, please just let it go?
Given the choice between close racing and sprint racing, I know what I'd rather have. Does that make me less of an F1 fan than you are?

[DanielPT]

Obviously that Mark has is own opinion and having driven with super sprint races (before) or more endurance ones (now), we have to respect it. I just think it is a shame he is letting that point of view of his to be so noticeable in his driving, because, let's face it, he is having a bit of a torrid time with the Pirelli's. And he is not very happy with it, for sure. Looking at the every era changes in F1 there are always some drivers who retire, perhaps not being able to adjust to the new driving style. I sure hope that doesn't happen with Mark.

Also, I think Alonso was driving at the edge in the Spanish GP, being the home race and all. Maldonado was in tyre management mode, yes, but I bet Alonso was really going for it and that could be see with the drop off that happened later.

[East Londoner]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/05/25/f1-fanatic-roundup-255/

The video at the bottom of this F1 Fanatic article is from the 1997 Spanish Grand Prix, a race heavily dictated by the tyres. Proof that tyre management is nothing new.

Also, go home Jacques Villeneuve for stopping the Prost team winning a race!

[BlindCaveSalamander]

Also, go home Eddie Irvine for stopping the Prost team winning a race!

Fixed. If Irvine hadn't pointlessly held up Panis, he would've won regardless of whatever Villeneuve did.