2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby mario » 13 Nov 2011, 02:59

Klon wrote:I've said it before and will say it again until everyone has grown absolutely tired of it: with Vettel we are seeing one of the greatest qualifying drivers in F1 history. Not even the "great car" argument does cut it anymore the way he's been getting poles.

I'd caveat that with the conditions that we are currently seeing his performances under a particular set of technical regulations coupled to a particular qualifying format and memories that are somewhat biased towards more recent events (which is part of human nature).

Weighing things up, if you were to go back, say, five to ten years and ask the question "Who is the best qualifying driver on the grid?", you'd probably be pointed towards somebody like Jarno Trulli (especially in the wake of his front row grid slot for Jordan in Monaco back in 2000), yet these days Heikki has easily had the measure of Jarno when it comes to qualifying. Similarly, if you were to go back to, say, 2003-2006, others might point you towards Mark Webber during his days with Jaguar, and also Williams to a certain extent, when many felt that his qualifying performances flattered the car, such as when he qualified 3rd at the 2003 Hungarian GP in the Jaguar R4, or qualifying in 2nd place in the 2004 Malaysian GP in the R5.

Vettel has certainly performed extremely well throughout qualifying this year with pole position after pole position, but on the other hand it should be borne in mind that qualifying performances are somewhat relative. For example, the F150th is know to perform relatively poorly over a single lap, and development on the car more or less stopped in Hungary - so, would you say that Alonso has not performed well in qualifying today, given that he is only in 5th place, or would you say that his performance today was excellent because he is close to Webber (within 0.2s), considering that Red Bull have continued developing their car for much longer (even though they have won both titles they are still introducing updates for the RB7, like a slightly revised front wing for the Indian GP).
How exactly do you judge that Vettel is, singularly amongst the drivers on the grid right now, doing the best job possible considering the relative form of the cars on the grid? Are Vettel's pole positions, for example, comparable to Heikki managing to pressure the tail end of the midfield for 17th at times this season in qualifying, considering that Heikki is driving for a team on a fraction of the budget of Red Bull?

Go further back in time still, and there are other instances of drivers who also stood out in qualifying, and arguably to an even greater extent that Vettel does now, such as Jim Clark, Fangio or Moss, all of whom at times would utterly dominate in qualifying or manage to put a car far further up the grid than many would have expected it to be. Right now, it is true that Vettel is doing very well in qualifying, but that is by no means assured over the full length of his career. Give it another, say, five years, and we could all be hailing another driver currently further down the grid, or currently still in a junior series, as the greatest qualifying driver the sport has seen - so, for now, I'd hold fire on declaring Vettel the greatest driver in qualifying in F1 history for now.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Mister Fungus » 13 Nov 2011, 03:51

Funny thing - a year (+ few days) ago Williams was on pole position.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby FullMetalJack » 13 Nov 2011, 04:12

Mister Fungus wrote:Funny thing - a year (+ few days) ago Williams was on pole position.


Hulkenberg on pole and Barrichello 6th, oh how things have changed :(
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby BlindCaveSalamander » 13 Nov 2011, 05:34

redbulljack14 wrote:
Mister Fungus wrote:Funny thing - a year (+ few days) ago Williams was on pole position.


Hulkenberg on pole and Barrichello 6th, oh how things have changed :(


Granted that pole was a bit fortuitous, but it's still a staggering loss in competitiveness.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby eytl » 13 Nov 2011, 07:51

mario wrote:
Klon wrote:I've said it before and will say it again until everyone has grown absolutely tired of it: with Vettel we are seeing one of the greatest qualifying drivers in F1 history. Not even the "great car" argument does cut it anymore the way he's been getting poles.

I'd caveat that with the conditions that we are currently seeing his performances under a particular set of technical regulations coupled to a particular qualifying format and memories that are somewhat biased towards more recent events (which is part of human nature).


I completely agree with your analysis, mario. It will be no surprise that Vettel will inevitably be ranked 1st in our end-of-season rankings, but that will be because he and his team have completely unlocked the secrets of this season's regulations and circumstances and how to maximise performance under them. Pull out the big lap in qualifying to take pole (using off-throttle exhaust blowing to the max), make a good start, run away into a 1-second-plus lead to avoid being threatened by DRS, save tyres, react to others' strategy, and cruise to victory. That's his right and to his/Red Bull's credit, in the same way that Mansell and Williams' 1992 or Schumi and Ferrari's 2002/04 seasons were to their credit. But the fact that they've been so superlative whereas virtually no one else has been able to come anywhere close to that standard does cast a shadow of doubt over the overall greatness of the achievement.

It's interesting all these "Vettel's matched Mansell's records" headlines this year. Not only is that ironic given Williams' appalling form this season, but there is a certain similarity also in terms of their team-mates' levels of performances. Just as Webber has not won a race this season, were it not for Mansell's gift (followed by engine seizure) at Suzuka in 1992, then Riccardo Patrese would not have won a race that season either. But am I the only one sick and tired of the comparisons with Mansell when, for example, Nigel took his 14 poles from 16 races whereas Vettel has now achieved that but in the 18th race of the year? The comparisons are meaningless when the total number of races in a season are different, the total number of laps raced are different etc. etc. etc.

I fear another processional race. The grid is very Noah's Ark-like all the way down the field. Drivers are doubting DRS will have an effect. The Pirellis are now like Bridgestones. Lights out is not until midnight here in Sydney. If Vettel leads into the first corner I'm turning off and recording it and watching it in the morning instead.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Eryx » 13 Nov 2011, 08:30

All i have to say...

I think this wont be an exciting race...sadly...I will watch and hope...I do agree with Button though i think DRS wont be effective...we could be looking at another singapore...As for Williams...there an utter disaster pot right now...I imagine well see Lotus keeping them at bay....I mean
Pastor - 1:42.258
Heikki - 1:42.979

I think Pastor in fairness may of just wanted to set a lap time maybe because he knew he couldnt get anything faster in. with 2 laps...But still...only what 0.500 seconds innit...if Heikki gets him at the first corner...i think he maybe staying there.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby BlindCaveSalamander » 13 Nov 2011, 10:39

Eryx wrote:All i have to say...

I think this wont be an exciting race...sadly...I will watch and hope...I do agree with Button though i think DRS wont be effective...we could be looking at another singapore...As for Williams...there an utter disaster pot right now...I imagine well see Lotus keeping them at bay....I mean
Pastor - 1:42.258
Heikki - 1:42.979

I think Pastor in fairness may of just wanted to set a lap time maybe because he knew he couldnt get anything faster in. with 2 laps...But still...only what 0.500 seconds innit...if Heikki gets him at the first corner...i think he maybe staying there.


Unless Maldonado makes a pretty good start and/or some carnage occurs, he'll probably be behind Kovalainen after lap 1, what with that 10-place grid drop and all.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Wizzie » 13 Nov 2011, 11:29

Martin Brundle, at the 2005 San Marino GP wrote:You can sort of imagine in four or five years time talking about these guys we've got on the front two rows of the grid today, can't you? They're very much the future of Grand Prix Racing.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby FullMetalJack » 13 Nov 2011, 19:50

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
redbulljack14 wrote:
Mister Fungus wrote:Funny thing - a year (+ few days) ago Williams was on pole position.


Hulkenberg on pole and Barrichello 6th, oh how things have changed :(


Granted that pole was a bit fortuitous, but it's still a staggering loss in competitiveness.


True, the car was capable of q3 at that point in the season, and Rubens clearly was capable of qualifying 6th or 7th on merit.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby DanielPT » 13 Nov 2011, 22:30



This is all BS... The circuit is crap and they know it. This is their own admission of this fact, to a certain extent.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby sswishbone » 13 Nov 2011, 22:49

BBC are not very subtle in this attempt to get Eddie out doing a gridwalk in anticipation of next year

Also I agree the circuit changes should have been made
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Wizzie » 13 Nov 2011, 22:51

sswishbone wrote:BBC are not very subtle in this attempt to get Eddie out doing a gridwalk in anticipation of next year


Let the fun begin :lol:
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby AdrianSutil » 13 Nov 2011, 23:00

Wizzie wrote:
sswishbone wrote:BBC are not very subtle in this attempt to get Eddie out doing a gridwalk in anticipation of next year


Let the fun begin :lol:

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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Shizuka » 13 Nov 2011, 23:03

Here's to have an interesting race...
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby sswishbone » 13 Nov 2011, 23:04

VETTEL PUNCTURE!! Holy moly awesome! Alonso awesome pass on Button there
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Wizzie » 13 Nov 2011, 23:04

There is a god! :lol:
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Jeroen Krautmeir » 13 Nov 2011, 23:05

sswishbone wrote:VETTEL PUNCTURE!! Holy moly awesome! Alonso awesome pass on Button there

YEEESSSS!!! YES!!!! YESSSS!!!!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Klon » 13 Nov 2011, 23:05

Oh lord ... and that in Abu Dhabi of all the tracks. :lol:
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby the Masked Lapwing » 13 Nov 2011, 23:05

Ahahahahahahaha!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby DanielPT » 13 Nov 2011, 23:06

Great! Instead of having a Vettel domination we will have a Hamilton domination! Which is completely different! :D
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby sswishbone » 13 Nov 2011, 23:06

Vettel has retired, damage to rear brake drum!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Minardi Man » 13 Nov 2011, 23:07

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's out!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Klon » 13 Nov 2011, 23:07

IceG wrote:First Retirement: Vettel (well he has to crash out sometime)


AreYouAWizard.jpg
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby GwilymJJames » 13 Nov 2011, 23:08

This could really ruin his championship challenge.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby sswishbone » 13 Nov 2011, 23:12

Hamilton and Alonso are pulling away very swiftly from the rest of the pack, wonder if they'll keep the tyres in good condition
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby AdrianSutil » 13 Nov 2011, 23:14

Come on Hamilton, you need a win!!! Webber too, needs to remind Red Bull they have one car still out there racing.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Shizuka » 13 Nov 2011, 23:14

Kovalainen 13th!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Klon » 13 Nov 2011, 23:14

Requesting that first shot from Vettel at his PC. That is grade A photoshop fodder.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby DanielPT » 13 Nov 2011, 23:16

Saubers are in the last 2 positions... Are they the new Williams? :lol:
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby the Masked Lapwing » 13 Nov 2011, 23:17

Klon wrote:Requesting that first shot from Vettel at his PC. That is grade A photoshop fodder.

Bernie in his ear would have so many brilliant captions!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby sswishbone » 13 Nov 2011, 23:18

Apparently Button needs to make an in road into the advantage Vettel has on him according to Crofty :lol:

This DRS is pointless! Di Resta gets done, and immediately does it back, what's the sodding point?
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Shizuka » 13 Nov 2011, 23:19

DanielPT wrote:Saubers are in the last 2 positions... Are they the new Williams? :lol:


No, they pitted. I think they disposed the tires that fit them worse quickly. Keep an eye on them!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Klon » 13 Nov 2011, 23:21

Nevermind that, I forgot to calculate the fact that they were still behind the HRT. My bad.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby DanielPT » 13 Nov 2011, 23:21

These two DRS zones nullify themselves! What a fantastic idea FIA! :x
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby Henrique » 13 Nov 2011, 23:23

HRT/Sauber battle :twisted:
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby the Masked Lapwing » 13 Nov 2011, 23:23

Good TV time for HRT there.
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby DanielPT » 13 Nov 2011, 23:24

3-wide! Kobayashi and both HRT's! This GP is already worth seeing!
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby AdrianSutil » 13 Nov 2011, 23:29

DRS is pointless. Slowly getting bored now...
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby S951 » 13 Nov 2011, 23:29

kers fail for button nice race so far
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Re: 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Discussion Thread

Postby sswishbone » 13 Nov 2011, 23:31

The kers failure has seriously compromised Button here
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