The Sportscar and Endurance Thread

[ADx_Wales]

Its not part of the WEC , but its a 24 Hour race starting in a few minutes time...

...The Daytona 24 Hours, and its live feed has been spread to Motors TV (with somehow some coverage on British Eurosport 2 too), John Hindhaugh and Radio Le Mans providing the commentary for the Motors TV feed, and somehow they've broadcasted him discussing Television Commentary, Hindhaugh preferring to do radio, but also opening his mouth to a rumour that James Allan's wife only allowes him the privilage of attending only HALF the seasons F1 Races... Conspiracy Theorists..... whatever...

[nome66]

So this year's Motor Racing Season begins today!
here's a list of current and former open wheel drivers competing in today's event. SPEAKING OF WHICH JACKIE STEWART IS SUBBING FOR AJ FOYT AS GRAND MARSHALL. this year's race is shaping up better and better!!!
Graham Rahal
Scott Dixon
Dario Franchitti
Ryan Hunter-Reay
Christian Fittipaldi
Gustavo Yacaman (indy lights)
Max Papis
Ryan Briscoe
AJ Allmendinger
Justin Wilson
Ricardo Zonta(!!!)
Paul Tracy
Jan Mangussen
Eliseo Salazar
Marco Andretti
John Andretti

[ADx_Wales]

Well it started a fortnight ago actually, the Dubai 24 Hours, Berrnd Scneider the most succesful certified reject in this race, finishing Second AND Third in two Mercedes SLSs, with another Merc SLS finishing first, driven by none other than SEAN EDWARDS, son of GUY EDWARDS, another Certified, and also known for being one of the many who rescued Niki Lauda from Oblivion.

[nome66]

i noticed 2 Patron Ferraris competing in the GT class today.
that team also competes in the ALMS. just being observant.
i pray that more crossing over and maybe even a full merger between those two series happens in the future a la IMSA Camel GT Series in the '80s and early '90s

[ADx_Wales]

It wont happen, the Grand Am GT cars are slower than GT3 cars. ALMS GTe is what used to be GT2, so ALMS still has the power advantage, no need to worry there.

[nome66]

oh well.
i like how the new Corvette and Riley DPs look kinda like the FIA GT1 cars from 1997-2000.
maybe porsche can jump into grand-am prototypes once again like their old FabCar chassis

[dr-baker]

So this year's Motor Racing Season begins today!

Well it started a fortnight ago actually, the Dubai 24 Hours...

You two have forgotten both the Dakar Rally (in S. A merica, nowhere near Dakar) (started on 1st Jan., finished 15th Jan.) and the Monte Carlo Rally (last weekend)...

[ADx_Wales]

So this year's Motor Racing Season begins today!

Well it started a fortnight ago actually, the Dubai 24 Hours...

You two have forgotten both the Dakar Rally (in S. A merica, nowhere near Dakar) (started on 1st Jan., finished 15th Jan.) and the Monte Carlo Rally (last weekend)...

Theres always something superceding the start to the season....like New Zeland Touring Cars or something.

[dr-baker]

So this year's Motor Racing Season begins today!

Well it started a fortnight ago actually, the Dubai 24 Hours...

You two have forgotten both the Dakar Rally (in S. A merica, nowhere near Dakar) (started on 1st Jan., finished 15th Jan.) and the Monte Carlo Rally (last weekend)...

Theres always something superceding the start to the season....like New Zeland Touring Cars or something.

But talking about THIS season in MOTOR SPORT - motor racing involves all categories, and I take this year to be this calendar year. So .

[ADx_Wales]

"so nerrr" lol

[mario]

So the whole works LMP entry was canned then? Would be a terrible shame to have seen all that effort go to waste. It was a terrible showing, but they were unprepared and hadn't had much time behind them. With a year's experience they'd be much better off.

All reports seem to indicate that the LMP1 program is canned. Its a real shame because most of the insiders said the car "had potential". It was really a year too early for Prodrive, both Audi and Peugeot had been track testing for months when the AMR-One was announced, to jump right in with not only their first scratch built prototype but also a scratch built engine was too big an undertaking with Le Mans just 6 months away.

The engine was not only underpowered but unreliable, resulting in them running the engine tuned down; some people estimate as little as 350 BHP, approximately half the Diesels and less than many LMP2s. Despite this they were never able to get any extended running and therefore did almost no work on the chassis. That said, the engine was one of the most compact and probably the lightest on the grid, had they tackled all the teething problems behind closed doors and arrived this year with the car well sorted, the program might have been a success.

I loved the look of the car, they could have done better with the livery (whats with the black bits?) but the front end just looks mean:

http://www.0-60mag.com/wp-content/uploa ... -front.jpg

Yes, it seems that the AMR-One program has been unceremoniously dropped, and some time ago; the cars were essentially abandoned at the back of the garage after the Le Mans 24 Hours last year, and no effort at all seems to have been made to start them up again. It looks like it would take a fair bit of sustained development to overhaul the cars, since it seems that the car suffered from both a lack of downforce and excessive drag (plus given how rich they were having to run the cars, the design of the cooling system might have been a bit suspect too). As for the engines being detuned, there are some questions over whether that was truly the case - given that the car was doing in excess of 300 kph yet was known to be aerodynamically inefficient, it suggests that the engines might not have been detuned quite as much as the team were claiming. About the only area where the car seemed fairly good was mechanically, as the car seemed to have decent mechanical grip and the engine was, whilst brittle, surprisingly lightweight (although the Audi team were pretty vitriolic about the design - the boss of Audi said that he considered the use of a straight six engine as "completely illogical").

Given that, Prodrive, perhaps unsurprisingly, seem to be more interested in the GT classes again where they have generally had much more success in the past with the DBR9 (plus it would have the advantage of being both cheaper to run, in most likelihood, not to mention they'd stand a much better chance of having a competitive car than trying to go head to head with Audi).

[nome66]

So this year's Motor Racing Season begins today!
here's a list of current and former open wheel drivers competing in today's event. SPEAKING OF WHICH JACKIE STEWART IS SUBBING FOR AJ FOYT AS GRAND MARSHALL. this year's race is shaping up better and better!!!
Graham Rahal
Scott Dixon
Dario Franchitti
Ryan Hunter-Reay
Christian Fittipaldi
Gustavo Yacaman (indy lights)
Max Papis
Ryan Briscoe
AJ Allmendinger
Justin Wilson
Ricardo Zonta(!!!)
Paul Tracy
Jan Mangussen
Eliseo Salazar
Marco Andretti
John Andretti

Oh jeez i totally forgot about JPM!! yeesh i thought he was a nascar driver! he might have been completely assimilated into Bill France's borg

[Stramala]

Is Ricardo Zonta still driving for Krohn Racing? That must be something like four years in a row now?

[F1000X]

Allan McNish is the best thing to happen to the Rolex 24 this year. FACT.

[nome66]

well apparently Felipe NASR(try to say that 3 times without mentioning ferrari)
is in 3rd currently with under an hour to go!

[nome66]

The little team that could! CONGRATS TO MIKE SHENK RACING ON THEIR DAYTONA 24 HOURS WIN!!

[DOSBoot]

Yay! A 1-2-3 for Ford! Glad to see Mike Shenk Racing get their first win after years of trying.

[golic_2004]

Great to see Allmendinger win again as well as a fitting return for Justin Wilson.

[IdeFan]

The big news today is that Colin Kolles has left his home and will run a pair of LMP2 Lotus (Judd) powered Lolas in the WEC this year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97239

Kolles' last experience of LMP team management was in 2009-10 where he ran a pair of ex works Audi R10s with very little success. In 2008 the works R10s were beaten only by the Peugeots and the only petrol which got anywhere near it was the Aston powered Lola run by Prodrive. In 2009 the Kolles run R10s had not only slipped behind the new Aston-Lolas, but also the Orecas, Pescarolos and the fastest Ginetta-Zyteks. In fact they were consistently the slowest of the regular runners in LMP1.

Expect a rejectful performance this year!

[DanielPT]

The big news today is that Colin Kolles has left his home and will run a pair of LMP2 Lotus (Judd) powered Lolas in the WEC this year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97239

Kolles' last experience of LMP team management was in 2009-10 where he ran a pair of ex works Audi R10s with very little success. In 2008 the works R10s were beaten only by the Peugeots and the only petrol which got anywhere near it was the Aston powered Lola run by Prodrive. In 2009 the Kolles run R10s had not only slipped behind the new Aston-Lolas, but also the Orecas, Pescarolos and the fastest Ginetta-Zyteks. In fact they were consistently the slowest of the regular runners in LMP1.

Expect a rejectful performance this year!

Expecting Yamamoto, Klien and Chandhok to drive one of the cars.

[Wizzie]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97245

Chip Ganassi, I'm BEGGING you to let this happen

[mario]

The big news today is that Colin Kolles has left his home and will run a pair of LMP2 Lotus (Judd) powered Lolas in the WEC this year.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97239

Kolles' last experience of LMP team management was in 2009-10 where he ran a pair of ex works Audi R10s with very little success. In 2008 the works R10s were beaten only by the Peugeots and the only petrol which got anywhere near it was the Aston powered Lola run by Prodrive. In 2009 the Kolles run R10s had not only slipped behind the new Aston-Lolas, but also the Orecas, Pescarolos and the fastest Ginetta-Zyteks. In fact they were consistently the slowest of the regular runners in LMP1.

Expect a rejectful performance this year!

Expecting Yamamoto, Klien and Chandhok to drive one of the cars.

Klien would probably be a fairly decent choice all things considered - he has, after all, taken part in a number of sports car races for Peugeot's works team, so at least he would have experience of driving a Le Mans Prototype car.
As for the performance of the R10 in Kolles's hands, to be fair Kolles suffered from the fact that Audi were pushing forward with development of the R15, which meant that development of the R10 effectively came to a halt just at the point where they were sold to Kolles. Some might cynically say that Kolles was only sold the R10's once Audi were sure they wouldn't compete with the R15 - Audi has often made very sure in the past that their older cars would not be able to compete with the works outfit (consider that Audi never sold the R8 to outfits like Kolles's when that car was retired from competition, and it was thought to be at least in part because they didn't want to see anybody beating the R10 because it could have disrupted Audi's plans to advertise their diesel cars off the back of their success in Endurance Racing).
Audi helped with servicing and modifying some parts so they'd meet the ACO's rule changes over that period of time, but it was a long way off from full factory support - there were some rumours at the time that Kolles had to turn to outside suppliers for components for the electronics system because Audi would not licence those parts to him. In particular, I believe that Audi were fairly sensitive about the traction control software they were using and didn't give much assistance in that regard, so Kolles's team had to develop their own ECU program for traction control.

[DanielPT]

I've only noticed now that Autosport abreviates the World Endurance Championship as WEC. dinizintheoven, I think you should go and claim your deserved rights!

[deCrasheris]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97245

Chip Ganassi, I'm BEGGING you to let this happen

That would be epic beyond words

[Stramala]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97245

Chip Ganassi, I'm BEGGING you to let this happen

That would be epic beyond words

They would likely lap the whole field with a drive line-up like that

[dinizintheoven]

I've only noticed now that Autosport abreviates the World Endurance Championship as WEC. dinizintheoven, I think you should go and claim your deserved rights!

What, those rights that I swiped from endurance racing in the first place, you mean? The first WEC I ever came across was in a ZX Spectrum game called WEC Le Mans from the machine's final days. The F1RMGP spin off... it was just a coincidence.

I will keep my activity in this thread to a minimum, so nobody's confused...

[DanielPT]

I've only noticed now that Autosport abreviates the World Endurance Championship as WEC. dinizintheoven, I think you should go and claim your deserved rights!

What, those rights that I swiped from endurance racing in the first place, you mean? The first WEC I ever came across was in a ZX Spectrum game called WEC Le Mans from the machine's final days. The F1RMGP spin off... it was just a coincidence.

I will keep my activity in this thread to a minimum, so nobody's confused...

That ZX spectrum game is now abandonware so you are entitled to take possession of it if you wish! Otherwise you can post many times you want on this thread that it should not be a problem. I just thought it was a funny coincidence!

[AndreaModa]

Those of you still holding out for a place for Heidfeld in the 2012 F1 paddock, prepare to have your hopes dashed.

He's gone and signed for Rebellion to drive a Lola-Toyota in the WEC at selected events, including Le Mans and Sebring!

Autosport have it here.

[IdeFan]

A somewhat amusing fact about Lotus pointed out by the Mulsanne's Corner facebook group:

The Judd developed engines that power the Kolles LMP2s are based on a BMW V8 (since all LMP2 engines must be production based). So this means that in the last two years Lotus have put their name to a Renault powered F1 car, a Honda powered Indycar and a BMW powered prototype, all to sell Toyota powered road cars!

We should really consider the entry to be Lotus-Kolles-Lola-BMW.

[dinizintheoven]

That ZX spectrum game is now abandonware so you are entitled to take possession of it if you wish! Otherwise you can post many times you want on this thread that it should not be a problem. I just thought it was a funny coincidence!

...my point was, wasn't the WEC acronym something to do with actual endurance racing back then (early 1990s, this was a Speccy +3 game on a disk... so advanced!), hence the name of the game, rather than the other way round?

[DanielPT]

That ZX spectrum game is now abandonware so you are entitled to take possession of it if you wish! Otherwise you can post many times you want on this thread that it should not be a problem. I just thought it was a funny coincidence!

...my point was, wasn't the WEC acronym something to do with actual endurance racing back then (early 1990s, this was a Speccy +3 game on a disk... so advanced!), hence the name of the game, rather than the other way round?

It says on wikipedia that it was mainly called World Sportscar Championship back them. But for three seasons they called it World Endurance Championship. Anyway the acronym is mostly used to denominate Formula 2.0 West European Championship or WEC. Sorry, my bad. The reasoning behind my post was that not having enough cash for licenses they imitated a real championship with another name. Perhaps their use of the acronym instead the full name had to do with it.

[RealRacingRoots]

Whilst the new McLaren launching this day was cool news and all, to me, it was dwarfed by the return of DOME to Le Mans with the S102.5. If they are accepted, accepted entries are to be announce tomorrow..... I'm praying so hard right now While the information hasn't been translated yet, it's on Dome's Japanese website, which means it's credible. From my rough guesstimates, they have an agreement with the always great Pescarolo Team to run the car with Nicolas Minassian and SEBASTIEN BOURDAIS to drive it.



When I first saw this car back in 2008, I thought it was the son of the GT-One TS020 that Toyota never wanted, it was gorgeous. But now that Toyota is back, gosh, I don't know what to think. Tears of joy is probably the best answer.

EDIT: Oh yeah, dorf, heres the link. http://www.dome.co.jp/news/news/dt_111.html

[IdeFan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97269

Translated in Autosport today. Great news, the S102 is one of the best looking prototypes of recent times. It was only raced once (Le Mans 2008) so there will be some concerns about its performance. Dome have continually updated the car to meed regulation changes for the last three years (in the hopes of attracting works support) but there is a big difference between theoretical work and actual testing/racing, especially with so little data to work with. What they really need is to run a full WEC season with it, but it seems they can't find the backing for it.

At least they have a good team on board in Pescarolo, nice to see them back up to two cars after a hard couple of years.

[Alianora La Canta]

Dome's doing Spa and Le Mans 24 from what I can gather. Hopefully in the next couple of hours the entry lists will emerge so that we can see which other rejects will be competing.

[AndreaModa]

I saw the picture on Autosport, and my God, doesn't it look good? I really hope they see some success with it, obviously challenging Audi, and probably even Toyota is out of the question, but to see it run up front and maybe realise some potential would be really great. With Toyota's involvement too it's good to see the Japanese getting properly involved in motorsports again after the past few dark years!

EDIT: Also, forgot to mention that Toyota have registered for the WEC championship properly now alongside Audi, giving the ACO the two manufacturers it needs in LMP1 to meet it's obligations with the FIA. It's unknown whether Toyota will expand their program because of this though.

Autosport are running the story here: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97273

Also the 2012 Le Mans entry list has been revealed, though there's still just the one driver assigned to each entry. Audi are running a four car program - two diesels and two diesel-electric hybrids, whilst it also finally confirms that Aston Martin have returned to the GT ranks. The link for the full entry list is at the bottom of the Autosport page.

[Stramala]

Also the 2012 Le Mans entry list has been revealed, though there's still just the one driver assigned to each entry. Audi are running a four car program - two diesels and two diesel-electric hybrids, whilst it also finally confirms that Aston Martin have returned to the GT ranks. The link for the full entry list is at the bottom of the Autosport page.

I remember the last time Audi did a 2/2 split like this with two different cars. 1999, they had the R8C and R8R - the former was closed top and the latter was open top. Both R8Cs were rubbish and ended up retiring anyway whereas the R8Rs came 3rd and 4th. I wonder if the same thing will happen again & if so, which car will be blighted by problems (probably the hybrids if either).

Although, perhaps this is not a sensible assumption - both cars this year will be very similar in terms of aero (perhaps identical, I'm not sure if they had to tweak the engine cover or other parts to aid the shift in weight distribution) whereas the R8C and R8R were designed by two different constructors - the R8C was a Dallara-built machine, and I remember the R8R was British but I can't remember who the company was.

[IdeFan]

Also the 2012 Le Mans entry list has been revealed, though there's still just the one driver assigned to each entry. Audi are running a four car program - two diesels and two diesel-electric hybrids, whilst it also finally confirms that Aston Martin have returned to the GT ranks. The link for the full entry list is at the bottom of the Autosport page.

I remember the last time Audi did a 2/2 split like this with two versions of the same car. 1999, they had the R8C and R8R - the former was closed top and the latter was open top. Both R8Cs were rubbish and ended up retiring anyway whereas the R8Rs came 3rd and 4th. I wonder if the same thing will happen again & if so, which car will be blighted by problems (probably the hybrids if either).

The R8R and R8C weren't really the same car, they shared the same powertrain but the chassis were developed by two different companies, the R8R was developed in house by Audi Sport and run by Joest Racing whereas the R8C was built and run by Racing Technology Norfolk, who would go on to design and race the Bentley Speed 8. The R8C's development was started very late, which is probably why it was both slower and less reliable than the R8R, that and Joest Racing are one of the best teams ever to race at Le Mans.

This year they really are two versions of the same car, all built by Audi Sport and all raced by Joest racing, so I'd expect all four to be fast and reliable. There were rumours after the Peugeot withdrawal that Audi were going to scale back to 2 cars, so to expand up to 4 suggests to me that either they were pushed into doing so by the ACO/FIA to boost the works entries, or that they have some doubts over their hybrid system and are running the conventional cars as backup.

[AndreaModa]

so to expand up to 4 suggests to me that either they were pushed into doing so by the ACO/FIA to boost the works entries

I highly suspect it was this, and that's the same reason Toyota have now officially registered for the WEC. It's a shame they're having to scrape the barrel somewhat to meet the requirements for the FIA before the season is even underway, but it's obvious with the Dome entry for example, that there is a fair bit of interest out there in the series, I think it just needs time to establish itself, and for the current global economic situation to subside a fair bit.

[Stramala]

Also the 2012 Le Mans entry list has been revealed, though there's still just the one driver assigned to each entry. Audi are running a four car program - two diesels and two diesel-electric hybrids, whilst it also finally confirms that Aston Martin have returned to the GT ranks. The link for the full entry list is at the bottom of the Autosport page.

I remember the last time Audi did a 2/2 split like this with two versions of the same car. 1999, they had the R8C and R8R - the former was closed top and the latter was open top. Both R8Cs were rubbish and ended up retiring anyway whereas the R8Rs came 3rd and 4th. I wonder if the same thing will happen again & if so, which car will be blighted by problems (probably the hybrids if either).

The R8R and R8C weren't really the same car, they shared the same powertrain but the chassis were developed by two different companies, the R8R was developed in house by Audi Sport and run by Joest Racing whereas the R8C was built and run by Racing Technology Norfolk, who would go on to design and race the Bentley Speed 8. The R8C's development was started very late, which is probably why it was both slower and less reliable than the R8R, that and Joest Racing are one of the best teams ever to race at Le Mans.

This year they really are two versions of the same car, all built by Audi Sport and all raced by Joest racing, so I'd expect all four to be fast and reliable. There were rumours after the Peugeot withdrawal that Audi were going to scale back to 2 cars, so to expand up to 4 suggests to me that either they were pushed into doing so by the ACO/FIA to boost the works entries, or that they have some doubts over their hybrid system and are running the conventional cars as backup.

I had already corrected my earlier mistake by the time you posted this

[mario]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97269

Translated in Autosport today. Great news, the S102 is one of the best looking prototypes of recent times. It was only raced once (Le Mans 2008) so there will be some concerns about its performance. Dome have continually updated the car to meed regulation changes for the last three years (in the hopes of attracting works support) but there is a big difference between theoretical work and actual testing/racing, especially with so little data to work with. What they really need is to run a full WEC season with it, but it seems they can't find the backing for it.

At least they have a good team on board in Pescarolo, nice to see them back up to two cars after a hard couple of years.

There is some interesting speculation on the mulsannecorner website that suggests Dome might be competing at Le Mans because of Toyota. It seems that Toyota originally turned towards Dome when they started their Le Mans program - Racecar Engineering confirmed in October last year that Dome provided Toyota with a car back in 2009 for Toyota to test their hybrid drive system, which suggests that Toyota were considering outsourcing their chassis program to Dome at the beginning. It would also go some way towards explaining how Dome could afford to keep updating the S102.5 in accordance with the latest rules from the ACO, since continual refinement would probably have cost Dome more than they could have paid for alone.
Now, it seems that once Toyota axed their F1 program, they decided to also cut their ties with Dome and shifted their design team to Cologne, where chassis development was turned over to Toyota Motorsport Group (TMG): a decision which Hiroshi Yuchi seems to have found hard to take as it seemed to be an implicit rejection of Japanese automotive engineering. So, the theory is that Dome a returning to Le Mans ostensibly to show Toyota that they made a mistake in rejecting them. At the very least, Yuchi is making it clear that they are determined to put on as much of a show in qualifying as possible and to maximise the performance of the car over a single lap; it sounds like he definitely wants to make a statement of intent.

It's an interesting theory, and it wouldn't be the first time that a car has been designed purely with the intention to smash a rival after being brusquely rejected - if that is the case, then we might have a few fireworks in the paddock as well as on the track.