Lotus, Red Bull protesting Mercedes Rear Wing

[Wizzie]

The protest is allegedly over the fact that driver-activated aerodynamic devices are illegal.

Once you think about it though isn't DRS, in principle, a driver-activated aerodynamic device anyway?

[tzerof1]

Once you think about it though isn't DRS, in principle, a driver-activated aerodynamic device anyway?

Exactly! And besides, there's no sense in protesting the other rear wing device further since it's been deemed legal. Also, I thought it was legal because it worked passively, in a way similar to their "W-duct" or whatever their front wing device is called.

[mario]

The protest is allegedly over the fact that driver-activated aerodynamic devices are illegal.

Once you think about it though isn't DRS, in principle, a driver-activated aerodynamic device anyway?

The problem is that the rules have been written to say that the DRS is the only driver operated aerodynamic device that can be used:

3.15 - Aerodynamic influence
[...]
With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.18, any car system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

Now, the catch here is how "driver movement" is defined - the defence Mercedes will probably use is that their is not directly operated by the driver, who only activates the DRS mechanism. It just so happens that a secondary, passive, system happens to start operating once the DRS is operated, which Mercedes would argue is a side effect of the DRS and which Lotus and Red Bull are arguing is driver activated because the system is designed so it only operates when the DRS is in use. It may be the case so far that Whiting has deemed the device legal, but I can also see why Red Bull and Lotus would complain about the legality of the device and might be interested in overturning Whiting's decision.

[East Londoner]

We don't need protests over parts on the car again. I've had enough of this shite, every bloody year. At the end of the day IMO, Mercedes were clever enough to build a better, innovative rear wing than Group Bahar or Red Bull, why should they be forced to lose this advantage because others were not far-sighted enough to develop one themselves? We all saw what happened last year with the protests over the RB7's EBD, which culminated in the shambles that was the run up to Silverstone. RB/Renault developed a better EBD, why should they have been pegged back?

CONSPIRACY THEORY: Considering Group Bahar's ride height system was banned, could this be a plot to get revenge on someone by banning their advantage?

[CoopsII]

Is it just me or do teams only protest different parts when they're struggling themselves? Also, how often does a 'big' team get support in these things from an engine-related 'small' team?

[Minardi Man]

Is it just me or do teams only protest different parts when they're struggling themselves? Also, how often does a 'big' team get support in these things from an engine-related 'small' team?

Lotus don't look too bad TBH, in fact, they're looking ahead of Mercedes so far, even in one lap pace.
I'd put it down to sour grapes, and I can see why. If their RRH system was deemed to be illegal, this looks even more dubious IMO.

That said, neither of these should really have been banned, nowadays innovation is being choked to death by the FIA just over the horrifying prospect of one team having a slight advantage over the others

[Faustus]

Typical. Someone builds a better mousetrap and rather than working to catch up, some people protest it.

[LionZoo]

Typical. Someone builds a better mousetrap and rather than working to catch up, some people protest it.

Actually, I have a feeling the teams are both already looking into building their own system AND protesting it at the same time. It's just that getting the system banned works better for them since they won't be behind on the development curve.

[mario]

Typical. Someone builds a better mousetrap and rather than working to catch up, some people protest it.

A bit like the double decker diffuser back in 2009 - and ironically it is the same outfit at the centre of complaints. Whether, just like in that case, the complaints will be dismissed is something we'll have to wait and see about...

[CoopsII]

Actually, I have a feeling the teams are both already looking into building their own system AND protesting it at the same time.

Thats about right, the same happened with Brawns diffuser in 09 didnt it?

[Wizzie]

Actually, I have a feeling the teams are both already looking into building their own system AND protesting it at the same time.

Thats about right, the same happened with Brawns diffuser in 09 didnt it?

With the singular exception of Red Bull if my memory is correct because they couldn't design a Double-Deck Diffuser midway through the season without completely redesigning the entire rear end of the car thanks to the geometry of the pullrod suspension.

[Wizzie]

Common sense prevails... for now

[DanielPT]

Common sense prevails... for now

Obviously. But if Mercedes starts to dominate (unlikely) or if another team (McLaren) dominates with it, we might see a change of heart...

[mario]

Common sense prevails... for now

Obviously. But if Mercedes starts to dominate (unlikely) or if another team (McLaren) dominates with it, we might see a change of heart...

Maybe, though if other teams, such as Red Bull, do decide to copy Mercedes's design, we might see the same teams decrying this invention suddenly change their tune. They might be especially keen on changing their tune given that Ross Brawn has been raising some criticisms of the exhausts that Red Bull, amongst others, have recently adopted...

[mario]

So much for hoping that this story might die down - despite the fact that the FIA have declared the Mercedes rear wing legal, Christian Horner is still unhappy about the situation and pressing the FIA for "further clarification" on the matter. Although he admits that the FIA are unlikely to take any further action, Horner says that he is effectively voicing the concerns of a number of team principals over the legality of the Mercedes rear wing in his demands for more details from the FIA. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98281

[East Londoner]

And still it rumbles on

[DanielPT]

And still it rumbles on

What a bunch of whiners. Lotus is being spiteful for seeing their suspension banned and Red Bull are just being a sore losers... If they spent more time and money developing their car and less time re-discussing FIA technical decisions over the legality of other cars they would probably be better.

[mario]

And still it rumbles on

What a bunch of whiners. Lotus is being spiteful for seeing their suspension banned and Red Bull are just being a sore losers... If they spent more time and money developing their car and less time re-discussing FIA technical decisions over the legality of other cars they would probably be better.

Horner's repeated calls for "further clarification" from the FIA are becoming increasingly grating, particularly since Horner and Red Bull are quick to complain to the media but have been rather more coy with the FIA.

Red Bull could have brought a formal complaint, either during scruitineering in Australia or Malaysia, or made a protest to the WMSC, yet they have spurned the legal options they do have to act and instead complain to the press (as, indeed, have Lotus, though at least Lotus haven't been complaining in the press as much as Red Bull have). If they are so convinced that it is not legal, then take the issue up with the FIA, as they are the final arbitrators - and if supposedly several other teams also support your stance (the BBC claims that at least five teams have made complaints), surely it would be possible to co-operate with them and launch a joint protest (as happened with the DDD row).

Furthermore, the FIA has given a formal briefing to the press to explain their position - http://fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressr ... lie-PC.pdf - which explains that, since the system relies on the DRS being open (a system that the driver is permitted to operate) but acts passively (it is an indirect consequence of the DRS being opened). Do Red Bull want Whiting to basically reveal how the Mercedes system works (it'd fit with their repeated requests for "more detail")?

[AndreaModa]

My guess is Red Bull's stance is that if they can't get it banned, they might as well try and get as much information about it as possible to make copying it easier. It's a shrewd move, but one that's not going to win them any new fans if they keep on like this. It all just gives the impression of sour grapes like DanielPT pointed out.

[S951]

red bull are just whiners now trying to say merc doing something illegal ahem flexi wings & ahem cough questionable engine maps

[BlindCaveSalamander]

red bull are just whiners now trying to say merc doing something illegal ahem flexi wings & ahem cough questionable engine maps

It's not even like Mercedes are gaining that much from their rear wing; sure, it's effective in qualifying, but in the race they drop like a rock. Red Bull would be better served by focusing on trying to catch up to McLaren; if they're worried about Mercedes being ahead on the grid, by focusing on catching up to McLaren, they'll have a better shot at the title, and ditch Mercedes in the bargain. Lotus I'm prepared to forgive because if Mercedes do get their act together, they'll have to fight them for 3rd in the Constructors' Championship.

[FMecha]

Why I see RBR as a 'hypocrite' on Mercedes rear-wing?

[DanielPT]

Lotus files protest against Mercedes's rear wing

Can these guys be any more hateful and distasteful? Why do they think FIA will change their mind after twice saying it is legal?

[Wizzie]

McLaren are starting to get as annoyed as the rest of us about it

[Sublime_FA11C]

from formula1.com

Article 3.15 states that, “with the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment [...of DRS...], any car system, device or procedure which uses, or is suspected of using, driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.”

This phrasing should put Mercedes in the clear for this year, as i can't see the FIA rephrasing the article before next season. Merceses' 'double-DRS' does not use any driver movement EXCEPT the one that happens to be legal and that is activating the DRS.

The system does use parts that are not necessary for the DRS adjustment but the article is phrased so it only prohibits those systems that both use extra parts AND require driver movement. Mercedes use the legal driver movement to activate a system which isn't explicitly prohibited. Very clever.

So it's up to the FIA to explicitly limit the DRS mechanism and ban secondary systems/procedures for next year or let the other teams catch up and use this gimmick.

[AndreaModa]

Yet AGAIN the FIA have stated what they always have done, that the Mercedes wing is legal: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98736

I honestly don't know why they keep trying to get it banned, I could understand somewhat at first but this is the third time now that the FIA have said it's legal. How about just dealing with the decision and walking away? It's not as if Mercedes are even that competitive with it anyway.

It certainly isn't helping Enstone-based Lotus and their image following Group Lotus' PR debacle yesterday, I think they should try and keep a low profile for the next few races to be honest, try and get some good results and make a few positive headlines for a change.

[S951]

Lotus you suck!! GO HOME!! eat magnum!

[razta]

Lotus you suck!! GO HOME!! eat magnum!

looks like they have
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98740

[razta]

The "Fight" as it Happened..

The Challenger - James Allison from Lotus Renault.
The Victor - Ross Brawn..

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98738

#BRWND!

[tristan1117]

I'm glad this thing is resolved; I'm tired of all these technical rows. Group Lotus goes home disappointed again.

[Sublime_FA11C]

Now Lotus wants one!

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/4/13235.html --- That is about as surprising as rain being wet. Was it even 48 hrs between the protest settlement and this?

[jackanderton]

They've all been complaining about the potential cost. But does anyone think that they've just this second start to develop their own version? Most of the moneyed teams will have figured their own out by Spain or Monaco surely.

[jackanderton]

It's not as if Mercedes are even that competitive with it anyway.

Fail.

[razta]

They've all been complaining about the potential cost. But does anyone think that they've just this second start to develop their own version? Most of the moneyed teams will have figured their own out by Spain or Monaco surely.

Funny thing is that Nico only used the DDRS ONCE! in the Entire Race when passing Massa