dinizintheoven wrote:(see above for all my previous bumph, and Mario's) ... There appears to be a lot of "hooray, HRT are going to be retrospectively promoted to 10th in 2010 and 2011!" clutching at straws here, and I can't see any situation in which that could happen. If it does... what next? Do we throw Benetton out of the 1995 season, or get shot of Brabham from 1983, even though one of those teams has evolved twice since then and the other no longer exists?
BINGO! Someone give this man a beer
For the record, given that this is the first time I've looked at this thread since my previous post, I had two beers earlier this evening. Unfortunately, they were Grolsch, but I needed the swingtop bottles more than I wanted to drink their contents, and there were no fine Belgian ales to be seen anywhere. At least, none in the right bottles.
Eryx wrote:On the note of Caterham "under Acheieving" They arent where they should be granted but to be honest, The media mainly (Eddie Jordan) Seems to forget that Caterham arent the only team upgrading there cars. . .
The BBC's predictions for this season were that Caterham would finish 9th, ahead of Williams. That would only have happened if Williams had continued their slide backwards, if the FW34 was as bad as the FW33 and all the suspicions were correct about their two heavily-sponsored drivers who many have suspected are more there for their money than talent - but it hasn't happened, the car's a huge improvement (ugly though it is) and, Reverend's catastrophic clanger in Australia aside, both drivers look to be capable of doing the job. Then there's Toro Rosso, who Caterham could also have jumped - the drivers are almost unproved, but the car's clearly good enough that Daniel Ricciardo and Jnnnnn-Errrrrc Vrrrrrrgne don't have to break a sweat to beat the Caterhams in qualifying, what pushes them forward is the thought that, in all probability, one of them will drop out in Q1, as it was for their predecessors in 2010-11, and neither wants to be the fall guy. So - Caterham have moved forwards, definitely, but to reach their target for this year they'd have to have made the giant leap that just doesn't seem to be possible these days. Marussia and HRT (for this is their thread) have probably progressed as well, though the analysis of HRT's qualifying times that shows that it's Karun Chandhok in the genuinely dreadful F110 who's come closest percentagewise to the pole time should really be setting off the alarm bells at their new HQ.
Looking at the qualifying times so far this season, it seems to be a block of 18 cars all within just over a second of each other - then
the Caterhams, then
the Marussias, then
the HRTs, and the order is still as inviolable as it ever was. What really
concerns me is the animals-went-in-two-by-two formation of the last six
rows of the grid - Williams, Force India, Toro Rosso, Caterham, Marussia, HRT - it suggests that it doesn't really matter who's driving these cars, even with these very narrow performance gaps between then, the grid order is determined overwhelmingly by the raw pace of the car - or, should I say, more specifically, its aerodynamics. Not only gone are the days of 1992 when Mansell would be a second ahead of Patrese, who would be a second ahead of Senna, then there'd be all the others (two seconds off the pace would be down with the Caterhams now - how'd you like that
, Ayrton?), but gone also are the days of 2001 where Fernando Alonso dragged his reticent Minardi into places it had no right to be. You could put Sebastian Vettel in a backmarker car now, and he'd still qualify 23rd in an HRT, 21st in a Marussia, and 19th in a Caterham.
What I'd be tempted to do is combine the qualifying times for the Australian GPs of 2010 and 2012, and that should show how far, or not, the three backmarkers have moved off the back... or not, as the case may be. I may also do the same for 1992 and 2012, with the times represented as +x.xxx from pole.
Eryx wrote:On the note of Minardi. . .Remember there were allot of Factors that helped Minardi score points . . .Reliability is a MAJOR thing now. . .If Schumi hadnt of had that Pit Stop error. . .We possibly could of had another time where 24 Cars could of crossed the line. Cars back in the day of Minardi werent as reliable as they were now. that doesnt change the fact that Minardi are my favourite team STILL and astonished F1
Too right, again!
I know I said it somewhere before, but I don't know where (who knows, maybe it was this thread, or the "other" HRT thread?) - the reason the points were expanded to 8th place, then to 10th, was because they had to be to avoid only five or six teams scoring throughout the course of the season. Had the cars of 2010 had the reliability levels of, say, ten years earlier, all three new teams would have scored in 2010 and 2011 - and, likely as not, one or two of them would be on the scoresheets already this year - probably Marussia, seeing as Timo Glock managed to keep his car going in Australia when all others around him were falling to bits. Even so, though, with the relative performance of the cars as dominant in making the results as it is, the fact remains that for Caterham to score one point, they need nine cars ahead of them to retire. It's rare now that nine cars do
retire in each race, and even if there are that many, two or three of them will be from those back three teams. How must it be for HRT? They need 13 retirements ahead of them, which is all but unheard of now. And yet, even some of the most hopeless teams in F1 history, those teams we like to celebrate, who were way
worse than HRT, managed to sneak a point or two under the old first-to-sixth system. Osella, for instance, the epitome of a massive reject team, scored two points, as did Zakspeed and AGS. Under the 2010 points system, Coloni would have had four points for an eighth, and they were totally hopeless; Simtek, for all their troubles, were a far better proposition, but would only have scored one point under the same system, while Pacific, firmly bottom of the heap by a mile in 1994, recovered the next year to two 8ths and a 9th for... ten
2010 points! While here are HRT, Marussia and Caterham on a big fat zero after two seasons which were longer than those of the 80s and 90s, plus three races into this one.
Reliability. I like it in my road car, which is a Honda and never, ever breaks down. I hate it in F1.