What Tracks Will Get the Boot?

[Klon]

If Magny Cours is the circuit of the socialists, and Paul Ricard is favoured by the UMP, who do we have to get elected to have the Le Mans Bugatti circuit?

The Parti Socialiste - a political zero sum game.

The F1 teams don't want to go to back to Magny Cours.

As if anyone had ever cared what they want.

[tommykl]

If Magny Cours is the circuit of the socialists, and Paul Ricard is favoured by the UMP, who do we have to get elected to have the Le Mans Bugatti circuit?

Mélenchon of course. The track may not be any good, but it's cheap. It's the perfect anti-capitalist track, and therefore the best choice.

[dr-baker]

Interesting to see that the French GP is in doubt again though, that's something a lot of people expected might happen if Hollande won the election, which he did, but I'd still like F1 to go back to France. They still contribute an awful lot to F1 in general.

Well, technically the Grand Prix itself is not in doubt. Hollande just would prefer to see it in Magny-Cours since most of his voters lure in that region. So it's not a matter of "if" but "where".

Magny Cours isn't really an option, no matter how much Hollande and the Socialists (great band) would prefer it. The F1 teams don't want to go to back to Magny Cours, and the reduced rate that Bernie was going to charge (himself) for having the grand prix at Paul Ricard won't be applied to any deal at Magny Cours.

If Magny Cours is the circuit of the socialists, and Paul Ricard is favoured by the UMP, who do we have to get elected to have the Le Mans Bugatti circuit?

Hopefully not the Le Pen family...

[Captain Hammer]

Interesting to see that the French GP is in doubt again though, that's something a lot of people expected might happen if Hollande won the election, which he did, but I'd still like F1 to go back to France.

I've been told Hollande is fine with the race going ahead, he just wants it at Magny-Cours.

[AndreaModa]

Interesting to see that the French GP is in doubt again though, that's something a lot of people expected might happen if Hollande won the election, which he did, but I'd still like F1 to go back to France.

I've been told Hollande is fine with the race going ahead, he just wants it at Magny-Cours.

But that's the problem, Bernie doesn't want it there, and therefore as far as he's concerned, the matter is closed. I honestly can't see them going back to Magny Cours - apart from the French government's backing the circuit has nothing going for it. It's not like it even has a team based there any more. Is it even hosting any major events these days apart from the Bol d'Or?

[Backmarker]

Is it even hosting any major events these days apart from the Bol d'Or?

MASSIVE races, like the French F4 Championship, Formula BMW Talent Cup, the GT Tour, the Supersport World Championship!

[AndreaModa]

Is it even hosting any major events these days apart from the Bol d'Or?

MASSIVE races, like the French F4 Championship, Formula BMW Talent Cup, the GT Tour, the Supersport World Championship!

Oh wow! That says it all then!

Get the race to Magny Cours NOW!

[mario]

Interesting to see that the French GP is in doubt again though, that's something a lot of people expected might happen if Hollande won the election, which he did, but I'd still like F1 to go back to France.

I've been told Hollande is fine with the race going ahead, he just wants it at Magny-Cours.

But that's the problem, Bernie doesn't want it there, and therefore as far as he's concerned, the matter is closed. I honestly can't see them going back to Magny Cours - apart from the French government's backing the circuit has nothing going for it. It's not like it even has a team based there any more. Is it even hosting any major events these days apart from the Bol d'Or?

Bernie is dead set against a return to Mangy Cours, although to be fair to him that also reflects the opinion of the teams (the teams are just as hostile to the suggestion of returning to Mangy Cours as Bernie, if not more so). It is rumoured that Bernie is trying to kill off the proposal by offering much better terms if Paul Ricard was used (a much lower than normal fee to begin with that then rises at a slower rate), knowing that Hollande would probably face considerable public opposition if he was paying over the odds for a race at Mangy Cours.

Whilst the French government has finally delivered on the promised upgrades to the local road network, so the circuit is at least a little easier to access these days, there is no real commercial incentive for either FOM or the teams to want to go to Mangy Cours and there is still something of a logistical issue. Bernie knows that such an arrangement would be designed to benefit Hollande's party rather than him, and he doesn't seem keen on the idea of being used as a pawn by French politicians looking to make headlines.

[Yannick]

Joe Saward writes that Qatar, having lost out on their recent bid to host the Olympics, now is getting interested in hosting F1 again. Thus, Losail beckons, that Mickey Mouse track in the desert.

[AndreaModa]

Joe Saward writes that Qatar, having lost out on their recent bid to host the Olympics, now is getting interested in hosting F1 again. Thus, Losail beckons, that Mickey Mouse track in the desert.

Nah, certainly not whilst Bahrain and Abu Dhabi are on the calender. Maybe if we lost one of them Qatar would replace it, but otherwise I think it's unlikely. It's just old Joe trying to second guess things as usual.

[dr-baker]

Joe Saward writes that Qatar, having lost out on their recent bid to host the Olympics, now is getting interested in hosting F1 again. Thus, Losail beckons, that Mickey Mouse track in the desert.

Nah, certainly not whilst Bahrain and Abu Dhabi are on the calender. Maybe if we lost one of them Qatar would replace it, but otherwise I think it's unlikely. It's just old Joe trying to second guess things as usual.

But after the controversy of the Bahraini race last year and this, how likely is it that Bahrain will reamin on the calendar next year?

[Klon]

The Losali Circuit is that one they have the night race for MotoGP on? At least in the games, it looks like reasonable fun. Better than Sepang on any day, although that is not too hard.

[AndreaModa]

The Losali Circuit is that one they have the night race for MotoGP on? At least in the games, it looks like reasonable fun. Better than Sepang on any day, although that is not too hard.

Yup that's the one. Not bad for bikes, but I think it would be exceptionally dull for F1.

[Backmarker]

The Losali Circuit is that one they have the night race for MotoGP on? At least in the games, it looks like reasonable fun. Better than Sepang on any day, although that is not too hard.

I think Sepang's all right, just suffers from them red-flagging it every time it rains on circuit.

[pasta_maldonado]

**Sorry for probably repeating opinions**
I think that F1 may be making a mistake trying to move away from it's heritage and into 'new territory'. Classic events like the French GP, the Portugese GP, the Hockenheimring etc have all been slashed from the calendar just so Bernie can get billions of funny money from an eastern country where 90% of the people have never even heard of the BBC, let alone F1. I wouldn't mind if the tracks were good and entertainingt but most are bathplugging awful.

Bahrain - crap
Valencia - Bathplugging awful
Singapore - Despite being hailed as the eastern Monaco, i find it too long and slightly boring.
Abu Dhabi - Rejectfully crap.
The New Hockenheim - Most of its good, but I prefer the old one. Anyway, who thinks that a 1 degree hairpin is a good idea?
Texas -Has the potential to be processional
Korea - Boring


I bet primary school kids could come up with better designs than the vile turdery that Hermann plugging Tilke has come up with in the last few years. I'll let him off a bit for India, I found the track exciting and with plenty of potential for great races, but the rest are, quite frankly, shite and so are Bernie's business motives. We don't want new Middle Eastern events in the bathplugging dark, with a hundred and one corners that's only there because some King has so much money he can afford to use it as toilet paper. We want good racing, and sending F1 to Tilkedromes to places where it'll be dark when the race starts is not the way to go about it. Why should Paul Ricarcd (if it comes back), for instance, have to alternate with the magnificent Spa, just so some country that resembles a childrens play pit can have fast things go around a track that has less soul and character than a person who's been dead for a hundred and twenty years?

[shinji]

just so Bernie can get billions of funny money from an eastern country where 90% of the people have never even heard of the BBC, let alone F1. I wouldn't mind if the tracks were good and entertainingt but most are bathplugging awful.

And you're well-versed in Singaporean broadcasting companies I presume?

[pasta_maldonado]

just so Bernie can get billions of funny money from an eastern country where 90% of the people have never even heard of the BBC, let alone F1. I wouldn't mind if the tracks were good and entertainingt but most are bathplugging awful.

And you're well-versed in Singaporean broadcasting companies I presume?

No, and I apologise for descending into a bit of a mindless rant with no facts or figures to back myself up.

[AndreaModa]

I wouldn't call the Portuguese GP a classic race - it's only existed on total for about 10 years, comparable to say Malaysia now.

And whilst Tilke deserves his share of the criticism, I wouldn't say Singapore is a bad circuit, in fact I'd rate that as one of the top ones on the calender right now, a street race at night that has a long duration and really tests the drivers and cars. I wouldn't be too critical of the Austin track either just yet. I'd reserve judgement on it until we've seen at least one race on it.

[Yannick]

Regarding the recent critique of circuits which has appeared here:

Sakhir: This is the role model for Tilke's philosophy in track design. Straight, hairpin, straight, hairpin, short straight, a sequence of fast sweepers ending with a tight corner, short straight, hairpin, straight, etc.
Only later has he added multiple apex "corners" which look like cgi artifacts because the parts between the apexes are straights, modelled on Turn 8 from Istambul Park which now is not being used anymore, or is it?

Valencia Marina: Oh the anachronism of staging a street race in a town which does have a FIA Grade 1T rated permanent racetrack. When designing this one, Tilke believed you could overtake at the end of straights if they are not really straight but drivers would weave back and forth from one side of the road to the other. That turned out to be wrong. He also believed it would create exciting races if the track was so difficult to drive that drivers have to focus their full attention onto keeping their line so they are fast. Wrong. This way, they cannot focus on wrestling with their opponents because they constantly wrestle with the track. Hence: boredom. The comparison of Liuzzi at Monza in a Force 1ndia and Badoer at Valencia in a Ferrari proved that simple tracks level the playing field amongst drivers which results in more competition and excitement for competitors and spectators alike whilst on difficult tracks, the gap between drivers who are a bit rusty and those who are not, is much bigger. So basically, this shows simplicity in a racetrack creates better races. And eventually, the better drivers will win, no matter on what track.
The first time I saw the track was in qualifying to the first race that took place there. And it was so boring I decided to drive my mother to the supermarket. Surprisingly, we met my uncle there who has been the biggest F1 fan of the family, getting everybody into the sport ever since he almost accidentally watched Jean-Pierre Beltoise win the Monaco GP in the 70s. He also considered the Valencia GP not worth watching. I have watched it once, because of Luca Badoer. That shall remain the only time.

Singapore: the night race does look like they were racing through a parking garage but as a street track, it's very fine. I'm somewhat worried about the safety features in place though. Yet, I feel the racing would be better if it were not a night race. This is a type of track which was long absent from F1 and the series has benefitted greatly from the variety it adds to the calendar.

Yas Marina /Abu Dhabi: Tilke said straight, chicane, hairpin, straight, chicane, straight, hairpin, chicane, short straight, multiple apex corner of consisting straight pieces, short straight, and some awkward looking corners to tie them together in a way that there is still enough space for a huge hotel that will look very dated in a while.
Yet, the circuit has shown some good racing. I'd say it's the best middle eastern circuit F1 has been on or been mentioned in connection with. Kamui Kobayashi in his 2nd race for Toyota vs Jenson Button in the Brawn and Vitaly Petrov in the Renault vs Fernando Alonso in the Ferrari are the kind of battles which this track is famous for. And deservedly so. I wouldn't visit it, though.

New Hockenheim: Maybe better for DTM than the old one, but F1 is missing the one circuit where the compromise in car setup to accomodate both the motodrome and the long straights through the forest messed with the pecking order for once during a season. If I ever get to Hockenheim with my girlfriend, I'll take her for a walk around the path that leads to the old Ostkurve. I'm pretty certain she will like it there. But the Mercedes Arena has taken away a lot of the fascination people had with the Motodrome which is not the same ever since.

Texas: to be determined; on paper, it looks like a mixture of Buddh and Korea and Valencia, with an unnecessary mickey-mousey stadium section in the middle of it. I guess we will only find out how good it really is once IndyCar runs it.

Yeongam / Korea: Well, it's a partial street circuit through a town that's not there yet, through a town which Tilke planned but didn't materialize. Whereas Valencia Marina is known as the race next to the building site, Yeongam is known as the race through the middle of the building site. It's the stuff F1 Rejects dream of. HWNSNBM should take his two-seater for a spin there ASAP. I'm not sure I have seen a race there but if so, I don't think it was particularly interesting.

This may be harsh on Tilke but the one thing he achieved is that people now know better what does work in track design to create interesting events and what does not.

[DanielPT]

I wouldn't call the Portuguese GP a classic race - it's only existed on total for about 10 years, comparable to say Malaysia now.

And whilst Tilke deserves his share of the criticism, I wouldn't say Singapore is a bad circuit, in fact I'd rate that as one of the top ones on the calender right now, a street race at night that has a long duration and really tests the drivers and cars. I wouldn't be too critical of the Austin track either just yet. I'd reserve judgement on it until we've seen at least one race on it.

Not a classic race, but perhaps a classic old fashioned track. And a slightly dull one too, unfortunately...

[BlindCaveSalamander]

I wouldn't call the Portuguese GP a classic race - it's only existed on total for about 10 years, comparable to say Malaysia now.

And whilst Tilke deserves his share of the criticism, I wouldn't say Singapore is a bad circuit, in fact I'd rate that as one of the top ones on the calender right now, a street race at night that has a long duration and really tests the drivers and cars. I wouldn't be too critical of the Austin track either just yet. I'd reserve judgement on it until we've seen at least one race on it.

Not a classic race, but perhaps a classic old fashioned track. And a slightly dull one too, unfortunately...

Wasn't Estoril similar in layout to Barcelona, except for a chicane just before the second-to-last corner? And some elevation changes too, I think?

[mario]

This may be harsh on Tilke but the one thing he achieved is that people now know better what does work in track design to create interesting events and what does not.

A bit harsh I'd say - it has to be said that he hasn't always had a free hand when it has come to developing several of those aforementioned venues, since there have been competing interests that he has had to deal with.
The racetrack in Valencia had to be tied into a regeneration program in order to get funding, so a large chunk of the track only exists because the mayor wanted new roads to be built on a set alignment and could justify it as "dual use". The layout of the Singapore GP was effectively dictated by access - the alternative proposal by Apex Circuit Design was virtually identical for that reason - and as for Korea, the proposal for a city to be built around the track came from KAVO (the company that owns the site) rather than Tilke. As for Hockenheim, as I understand things the layout that Tilke came up with was about the best he could manage given the very limited amount of land he was actually permitted to build on (the state government of Baden-Württemberg, who financed the reconstruction work, demanded major environmental mitigation measures - i.e. tearing up much of the old track and replacing it with trees - as their price for paying for the work, whilst the FIA's tighter regulations on emergency access and circuit security - especially after the notorious incident with the Mercedes employee launching a protest at the side of the track - would have made it very expensive and difficult for the old layout to be retained, if not impossible).

Now, that is not to say that I totally agree with everything he has done - I agree that a lot of his designs are somewhat repetitive and overly technical at times - but that all too often it is easy to criticise and a lot harder to actually come up with something that the FIA are willing to award a Grade 1 Licence to.

[Sublime_FA11C]

I'll indulge in a bit of heresy and declare the new Hockenheim better than the old one. The old one was more unique but fairly crap. The new one is surprisingly good, and the only case so far of butchering a classic race track into an improvement. I also like the hairpin, call the police...

Singapore is pretty good.

Korea i like as far as the "black stuff" is concerned. The construction site is obviously rejectfull as Yannick pointed out, but it's not part of the race course so i'll ignore it. Maybe it isn't perfectly suited to F1 but it's a good track.

Valencia Marina/ Yas Marina/ Sakhir - I'll need a few truckloads of manure to adequatly express my thoughts on these, but you get the general idea. Horse would be ideal although chicken smells much worse.

[Captain Hammer]

Yeongam / Korea: Well, it's a partial street circuit through a town that's not there yet, through a town which Tilke planned but didn't materialize. Whereas Valencia Marina is known as the race next to the building site, Yeongam is known as the race through the middle of the building site. It's the stuff F1 Rejects dream of. HWNSNBM should take his two-seater for a spin there ASAP. I'm not sure I have seen a race there but if so, I don't think it was particularly interesting.

Korea defies explanation. I actually think the circuit was built to try and lure Hyundai into Formula 1:

- For one, the circuit was announced in 2006 - four years before it joined the calendar. By comparison, ever other circuit has been announced two years in advance (except Russia, which also had four years, but that is because the circuit is being built on the site of the Olympic Games). Hyundai was believed to be planning an entry for the 2010 season as early as 2006, but the recession hit and the project was dropped.
- It is built in the middle of nowhere, and the nearest city is Mokpo, an industrial centre. It is also home to Hyundai Samho Heavy Industries, one of the largest employers in the region and the fourth-largest shipyard in the world.
- The circuit itself is a glorified test circuit. Each of the three sectors is highly exaggerated and tests a different area of car set-up and driver skill. The first sector tests top speed and heavy braking. The second tests a driver's natural ability. The third demands a perfect setup. The net effect is that different cars get their speed in different ways (as we saw in qualifying last year, with wildly-different sector times between teams), but it is still a test circuit.
- The organisers somehow managed to cut a better deal with Bernie that sees them save twenty million Won per year, removes the 10% commission fee on any profits the circuit makes, and lessens the 7% mutiplier from year to year. And Bernie agreed to all of this despite saying that he didn't want to re-negotiate with the Koreans because it was hard enough the first time around to get them to agree to anything.

I would not be suprised if Hyundai makes an entry to Formula 1 in 2014. Lola Cars was working on a chassis that they were developing from year to year before they went into voluntary administration (which allows them to continue operating while they look for potential investors), while PURE are developing an engine for 2014 without any apparent funding ...

[Captain Hammer]

Rumours of a return to Long Beach in 2015:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/06/ ... es-a-peek/

[Waris]

Rumours of a return to Long Beach in 2015:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/06/ ... es-a-peek/

Are you posting a link to Joe Saward on purpose to troll us?

[Captain Hammer]

Nope, I'm posting rumours of new races, because that's what goes in this thread.

I'm also hearing rumours of a race in Norway at the Rudskogen circuit, which has just finished an upgrade ... but it's still not long enough for Formula 1. It would need another 300m to meet the 3.5km minimum length needed.

[Captain Hammer]

Bernie has talked up the idea of a Grand Prix in London for a while now. Well, it could be a whole lot closer to reality than we first thought, with a) Bernie offering to fund the race out of his own pocket, and b) plans for the event are said to be unveiled tonight.

[CoopsII]

Bernie has talked up the idea of a Grand Prix in London for a while now. Well, it could be a whole lot closer to reality than we first thought, with a) Bernie offering to fund the race out of his own pocket, and b) plans for the event are said to be unveiled tonight.

Watch this space for the usual "I dont think London will happen now" from Bernie in about two years time.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm not so sure - plans are evidently about to be presented:

Plans drawn up for the event, due to be unveiled on Thursday night, suggest it would be watched by 120,000 people in grandstands along a three-mile route and attract a global television audience in the tens of millions, generating as much as £100m for London's economy.

[CoopsII]

I'm not so sure - plans are evidently about to be presented:

Lets hope it comes off then, although clearly it will mean TTFN for Silverstone. Unless, this is all a plot to put pressure on said circuit? You never know with Bernie.

[Wizzie]

I'm not so sure - plans are evidently about to be presented:

Lets hope it comes off then, although clearly it will mean TTFN for Silverstone. Unless, this is all a plot to put pressure on said circuit? You never know with Bernie.

But it wouldn't make sense if it is though. I mean, Silverstone has a contract for the next two million years and surely the BRDC will be up in arms if Bernie tries to break it.

[AndreaModa]

I'm not so sure - plans are evidently about to be presented:

Lets hope it comes off then, although clearly it will mean TTFN for Silverstone. Unless, this is all a plot to put pressure on said circuit? You never know with Bernie.

But it wouldn't make sense if it is though. I mean, Silverstone has a contract for the next two million years and surely the BRDC will be up in arms if Bernie tries to break it.

Yeah they have a contract into the 2020s, the British GP is secure for now. If a race goes ahead in London, I remember hearing somewhere, might have been on 5 Live, that it would effectively replace the Valencia race, with that going into its sharing agreement with Barcelona, and thus the race in London would be the European Grand Prix.

[Wizzie]

Bernie has talked up the idea of a Grand Prix in London for a while now. Well, it could be a whole lot closer to reality than we first thought, with a) Bernie offering to fund the race out of his own pocket, and b) plans for the event are said to be unveiled tonight.

Interestingly, that article DOESN'T mention the fact pretty much all of the planning's being done by Santander

[Captain Hammer]

Yeah, I saw that too. But I don't think Bernie's suggestion is solely to build hype for Santander.

[WaffleCat]

Should Bernie host the London race,here is what I think Mr Tilke or some other guy will think of:http://gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5225885

[nome66]

they'll probably use the track that was proposed back in '04.

[RealRacingRoots]

Here is the proposed layout.



Looks interesting. Santander and McLaren have a video set for it, I'm waiting to see it for myself.

EDIT: The video has been uploaded on the book of faces. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150948596553283

[Klon]

That looks rather interesting. I for my part am very much in favour of that race happening and replacing Silverstone as soon as possible.

[nome66]

looks pretty good, actually.
three passing zones i see.
edit::
WOAH WOAH WOAH 2012!? don't be obsurd, Bernie Ecclestodt, at least 2013 man!