F1Rejects.com

by **CarlosFerreira** » 03 Apr 2009, 01:16

Right, still early days to evaluate the contraption, but here's the question: is KERS the new F1 reject for 2009? Let's see:

Pluses
- Helped Hamilton climb up the classification

Minuses
- Kubica (not using it) consistently faster than Heidfeld (using it)
- Didn't seem to have much use for Ferrari
- Didn't seem to have much use for Renault.

So - silly gimmick, outright reject or potentially A Good Thing? The jury's out on this one, but the BMW case doesn't bode well for the potential of KERS. Is the 2009 reject at hand so soon?

by **Nin13** » 03 Apr 2009, 01:22

We have to wait, I think........
Williams are using Flywheel KERS which is different from other's who are using Battery KERS. So that could give them advantage........

Also KERS will give 0.5-0.7s around tracks like Monza ans Spa with long straights and hard braking.

by **CarlosFerreira** » 03 Apr 2009, 02:34

Could be. I still think the cars are not faster with it - cue Kubica, we're really fortunate BMW is not giving KERS to both.

Did anyone else realize that Hamilton and Raikkonen were using it in different points/situation of the track? Hamilton was using it on the long straights, after he picked up speed, possibly to fight wind resistance; Kimi was using it exiting 3rd/4th corners, right after he got traction, to get better acceleration. Interesting...

by **Nuppiz** » 03 Apr 2009, 03:53

Well, Alonso said that it was totally useless, but hey, that's Alonso again! :mrgreen:

by **RejectSteve** » 03 Apr 2009, 06:07

The idea behind KERS is good, but at this point I don't think can be successfully implimented. If the minimum weight was increased, it might help teams get around the weight issue. Williams' flywheel system could change that depending how it works, but if the flywheel loosens, it will be lethal to anybody in its path. The first step should be to make KERS safe so we don't have mechanics and marshalls getting zapped.

by **CarlosFerreira** » 03 Apr 2009, 06:09

RejectSteve wrote:The idea behind KERS is good, but at this point I don't think can be successfully implimented. If the minimum weight was increased, it might help teams get around the weight issue. Williams' flywheel system could change that depending how it works, but if the flywheel loosens, it will be lethal to anybody in its path. The first step should be to make KERS safe so we don't have mechanics and marshalls getting zapped.

I'm very curious to see Williams' system used. Maybe they're just waiting for time to pass in order to quietly consign it to the bin and next year get the standard system?

by **Yannick** » 03 Apr 2009, 06:27

Isn't it fascinating that this year, there is a thing, an inanimate object seriously considered as campaigning for Reject Of the Year honors, even at this early point in time? Don't we all love inanimate objects getting awarded reject status?!

by **CarlosFerreira** » 03 Apr 2009, 06:40

Yannick wrote:Isn't it fascinating that this year, there is a thing, an inanimate object seriously considered as campaigning for Reject Of the Year honors, even at this early point in time? Don't we all love inanimate objects getting awarded reject status?!

If it doesn't prove interesting for the sport it's a reject, and it probably costs more to teams than Piquet, Bourdais and all the other candidates together. So far I am quite entertained by it - I am fascinated by the concept of the boost button in F1.

Any way, I intend to use this topic to keep an eye on it. I wanna see how this plays out; I just wish they come up with a way we can all see who's using it, when and where.

by **BB01** » 03 Apr 2009, 06:47

RejectSteve wrote:The idea behind KERS is good, but at this point I don't think can be successfully implimented. If the minimum weight was increased, it might help teams get around the weight issue.

It seems that its more of a weight distribution issue rather than outright weight. I'm pretty sure all teams run more than enough ballast to make it work. So even if the weight limit was increased, it may not help anyway.

by **BlindCaveSalamander** » 03 Apr 2009, 06:48

Right now, I'm quite happy with KERS. It does give a handy boost to drivers, but not to the point where it is absolutely needed, which gives a bit of spice to the sport, I think.

by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Apr 2009, 22:40

Raikkonen apparently had a couple of KERS related failures, one at the end of each FP, and then in QP he either had it turned off or the indicator in the TV screen wasn't working.
Massa, before the start of the Malaysian GP, mentioned that Ferrari without KERS would be nowhere. Maybe Kimi disagrees?

On a related note, Force India's commercial director, Ian Phillips, is usually in the BBC 5's commentary box for FP2, and already this year he's mentioned there needs to be some sort of visual signal that goes on when KERS is deployed. Some sort of light for people on the circuit and people at home to instantly be able to see it. I fully agree with it! Any suggestions on how it might be achieved? Maybe some old-school police lights, blue and going round? Hey, if KERS is electric, we need it to light up!

by **Captain Hammer** » 04 Apr 2009, 22:53

When the BBC show on-board telemetry, there's a small grey battery with a red bar indicating the charge remaining. When a driver uses KERS, the icon glows yellow and the red decreases in accordance with the amount being used. However, they only showed it for Hamilton's car in Melbourne; I don't know if this is because Hamilton was the only one they had access to or if it was for some other reason (given the FIA's policy of glasnost for this year, I imagine it would be the latter).

by **CarlosFerreira** » 04 Apr 2009, 23:06

Captain Hammer wrote:When the BBC show on-board telemetry, there's a small grey battery with a red bar indicating the charge remaining. When a driver uses KERS, the icon glows yellow and the red decreases in accordance with the amount being used. However, they only showed it for Hamilton's car in Melbourne; I don't know if this is because Hamilton was the only one they had access to or if it was for some other reason (given the FIA's policy of glasnost for this year, I imagine it would be the latter).

Yeah, I noticed. Raikkonen has it too - that how I realized last week that he was deploying KERS in different places than Hamilton, and how we could see In Malaysia that he wasn't using it in Q3. But I think that's not enough. I want to look at a car's outside from any angle and immediately be able to tell whether he's using KERS or not. I want the straights to look like a cops-and-robbers movie, lights flashing on top of those deploying KERS, chasing the non-users. :geek:

by **Lainey** » 06 Apr 2009, 23:38

The more I hear commentators talk about how drivers can't touch the ground and the car at the same time if they wreck, for fear of fatal electrocution, the more I want these things off the cars before someone gets killed.

by **CarlosFerreira** » 07 Apr 2009, 01:59

Lainey wrote:The more I hear commentators talk about how drivers can't touch the ground and the car at the same time if they wreck, for fear of fatal electrocution, the more I want these things off the cars before someone gets killed.

We've just seem Raikkonen wading through large puddles of water and being ready for a coke and a Magnum. Toyota and Honda have similar systems in their road cars, and I don't think anyone's ever been electrocuted by any of then. It's OK, bar that unlucky BMW mechanic, that mercifully was OK in the end.
F1 is about pushing limits and boundaries, frequently against the wall, or at least into the gravel trap. It's, I'd say, the future.

by **KSvt** » 07 Apr 2009, 06:48

Lainey wrote:The more I hear commentators talk about how drivers can't touch the ground and the car at the same time if they wreck, for fear of fatal electrocution, the more I want these things off the cars before someone gets killed.

During the SPEED TV coverage after the race was stopped, the camera was panning out over a section of the track when a huge flash of lightning struck and one of the commentators (don't remember if it was Varsha or Hobbs) said, "one of the mechanics must have just touched a KERS car." Well, I laughed.

by **JDOD** » 07 Apr 2009, 17:35

Woo - First post.

I'm actually quite liking KERS. The Williams system should be a lot lighter than the other teams battery system, so maybe when they are happy with it they won't suffer the same weight penalty, you'd have thought a flywheel would be more reliable too eh?

It definately makes a difference. McLaren seem to have really effective KERS, it certainly works well for Lewis - Obviously we can't really tell with Kovy yet, given that he's not really had a race.

For all his bollocks talk you can see it making a difference on Alonso's Renault. Someone was slip streaming him in Malaysia, then when they pulled out alongside, he obviously hit the boost button and started pulling away again. Really obvious. I like KERS at the moment. Its another interesting variable.

by **Bleu** » 07 Apr 2009, 20:32

Alonso admitted that his great start was helped by KERS in Malaysia. He used all of it in the start, so didn't have anything left for the remainder of first lap.

by **alvaro3d** » 08 Apr 2009, 00:44

Williams KERS will be interesting to see in action I want to know if Williams KERS load faster than battery charged KERS, because at the start of Melbourne i tought that KERS charged fast like after a couple of corners you could get full boost but it seems it takes a full lap or two to charge, a faster charging KERS could prove and advantage for Williams to get those extra seconds to be up at front.

by **runningboots** » 08 Apr 2009, 03:11

I think KERS is great. It made Webber's battle to overtake whoever it was exciting and he had to work at it, finally winning the battle. I liken it to the turbo vs n/a battles of the early 80s before turbos really took over.

It could allow a dog of a car (Mclaren or Ferrari) to win a close battle at somewhere like Monza.

it could also make Monaco rubbish if a bad handling KERS car gets ahead

by **minrdi** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:20

Captain Hammer wrote:When the BBC show on-board telemetry, there's a small grey battery with a red bar indicating the charge remaining. When a driver uses KERS, the icon glows yellow and the red decreases in accordance with the amount being used. However, they only showed it for Hamilton's car in Melbourne; I don't know if this is because Hamilton was the only one they had access to or if it was for some other reason (given the FIA's policy of glasnost for this year, I imagine it would be the latter).

All well and good that the rear light of the car flashes when KERS is deployed, but the camers aren't always positioned to show the rear of the car, so the armchair viewer has no idea who is deploying KERS at any given stage.

It's great they they showed it on Lewis and Kimi's car onboard footage, but we had plenty of onboard vision of other KERs (and non-KERS) drivers during both race weekends, and KERS deployment wasn't indicated for the other drivers who we saw.

I hope that the principal broadcaster (Formula One Management?) take a leaf our of A1GP's book and can provide a clearer indication of who is using KERS and when they deploy it. The A1GP broadcaster posts the full top-to-tail running order on the side / bottom of the screen and flashes the name of the driver who deploys their push-to-pass. Perhaps FOM can look into something similar, not that they're likely to read my suggestion here!!! :lol:

by **Alianora La Canta** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:27

There is a KERS indicator on the cars. The trouble is that it's a small light designed so that the marshalls can see whether it's safe for them to handle the car. We need a bigger light in a consistent position (either on the upper edge of the steering wheel or on the top of the car).

by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:33

Alianora La Canta wrote:There is a KERS indicator on the cars. The trouble is that it's a small light designed so that the marshalls can see whether it's safe for them to handle the car. We need a bigger light in a consistent position (either on the upper edge of the steering wheel or on the top of the car).

On top, please. Big, bold, flashing light.

by **thehemogoblin** » 08 Apr 2009, 09:23

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Alianora La Canta wrote:There is a KERS indicator on the cars. The trouble is that it's a small light designed so that the marshalls can see whether it's safe for them to handle the car. We need a bigger light in a consistent position (either on the upper edge of the steering wheel or on the top of the car).

On top, please. Big, bold, flashing light.

Preferably orange, and reading "Go Force India!".

This would serve no purpose, and I'm not trying to promote an agenda... I'm just saying, it'd be the only way that seeing "Force India" on the screen anywhere would happen that wouldn't involve either one of them getting lapped or them spinning off.

by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Apr 2009, 09:41

thehemogoblin wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Alianora La Canta wrote:There is a KERS indicator on the cars. The trouble is that it's a small light designed so that the marshalls can see whether it's safe for them to handle the car. We need a bigger light in a consistent position (either on the upper edge of the steering wheel or on the top of the car).

On top, please. Big, bold, flashing light.

Preferably orange, and reading "Go Force India!".

This would serve no purpose, and I'm not trying to promote an agenda... I'm just saying, it'd be the only way that seeing "Force India" on the screen anywhere would happen that wouldn't involve either one of them getting lapped or them spinning off.

Hamilton's could say "I'm innocent", while Kovalainen's could spell "I'm off". Massa's would read "Baby, stay cool", and I'm almost certain Raikkonen's would have something like "Smirnoff". It is not uncertain Alonso's would remember everyone that "I'm the best", and you wouldn't be surprised to know Piquet's version would flash "I'm rubbish". Unfortunately, Heidfeld's would probably just show Kubica's shadow, while the (upcoming) Pole's would read "I hate all Germans".

How's that? :mrgreen:

by **thehemogoblin** » 08 Apr 2009, 14:07

CarlosFerreira wrote:
thehemogoblin wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
On top, please. Big, bold, flashing light.

Preferably orange, and reading "Go Force India!".

This would serve no purpose, and I'm not trying to promote an agenda... I'm just saying, it'd be the only way that seeing "Force India" on the screen anywhere would happen that wouldn't involve either one of them getting lapped or them spinning off.

Hamilton's could say "I'm innocent", while Kovalainen's could spell "I'm off". Massa's would read "Baby, stay cool", and I'm almost certain Raikkonen's would have something like "Smirnoff". It is not uncertain Alonso's would remember everyone that "I'm the best", and you wouldn't be surprised to know Piquet's version would flash "I'm rubbish". Unfortunately, Heidfeld's would probably just show Kubica's shadow, while the (upcoming) Pole's would read "I hate all Germans".

How's that?

Jenson's would probably say "It's the car", Barichello's would read "Perennial #2", Fisichella's would say "Make it rain", Sutil's would be "Pay Driver", Vettel's would be "Sebastian", Bourdais' and Buemi's would be "Sebastien"

Website · by **Wizzie** » 08 Apr 2009, 18:37

Webber's would be "Reliable"

, Trulli's would show "Trulli Train", Glock's would say "The Gambler", Rosberg can be "Pathfinder" and Nakajima will be "Wallfinder".
How about for the test drivers? :lol:

by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 Apr 2009, 18:41

Wizzie wrote:Webber's would be "Reliable" , Trulli's would show "Trulli Train", Glock's would say "The Gambler", Rosberg can be "Pathfinder" and Nakajima will be "Wallfinder".
How about for the test drivers?

With the new regulations, I suspect they'd all say "Redundant".

by **Alianora La Canta** » 09 Apr 2009, 05:01

thehemogoblin wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Alianora La Canta wrote:There is a KERS indicator on the cars. The trouble is that it's a small light designed so that the marshalls can see whether it's safe for them to handle the car. We need a bigger light in a consistent position (either on the upper edge of the steering wheel or on the top of the car).

On top, please. Big, bold, flashing light.

Preferably orange, and reading "Go Force India!".

This would serve no purpose, and I'm not trying to promote an agenda... I'm just saying, it'd be the only way that seeing "Force India" on the screen anywhere would happen that wouldn't involve either one of them getting lapped or them spinning off.

As a Force India supporter, anything that gets Force India more coverage (within reason) is OK by me :mrgreen:

by **CarlosFerreira** » 21 Apr 2009, 09:18

Right! Progress check.

After 3 races, the number of users has dropped from 7 in Oz to 3 in China.

Ferrari: Raikkonen had three KERS failures in Malaysia, the third of which during the monsoon, and reputedly decided to hit on the Magnum and Coke instead of being electrocuted. Massa said in Malaysia that KERS was the only thing giving Ferrari something approaching a decent pace, and the team immediately decided to drop it for China, for reliability and performance reasons. As a result, and as you might expect, the red cars were nowhere to be seen all weekend and Massa DNF because of an engine electrical problem while not using KERS. Afterwards, Massa publicly asked the team to bring KERS back for Bahrain, so I am personally convinced they won't have it back until Monaco, where the 70 bhp will be extremely useful. It will then be withdrawn until the Hungaroring.

Renault: they've read the book on scientific method, saying that the best way to determine the cause of something is to test one suspect cause at a time, and immediately decided there was a better way. So, this weekend, they've removed KERS in both cars, put a normal diffuser in one, a double decker diffuser in the other and have ended up with no idea of what the effect of diffuser, weight distribution or KERS is. I suppose Piquet'll get blamed for that as well.

BMW: Kubica ran KERS on Friday and was extremely slow. Than ran without it on Saturday and was extremely slow. Heidfeld pounded on with the system. Apparently, the team is building Kubica a new, lightweight car, to compensate and allow him to use KERS; then, I believe, they'll build another one just like it for Heidfeld, and the process will start over again. Either way, it doesn't seem to be helping matter much for them.

McLaren: well, they're persisting on it. It works, gives them some power, and the car's improving, apparently. I suppose their persistence will pay off; when they sort the aero, maybe KERS will be an advantage. Right now, it just seems to allow them to hold on.

Other people: Brawn is, according to AutoSport, considering getting the system from Mercedes, and Force India might get it as soon as the return to Europe. Not many news on other fronts; it seems everyone's expecting to see it become a real net advantage in order to jump on board. Three races down the line, and still no KERS victories, the best result being Heidfeld's fluke second place in Malaysia.

by **Captain Hammer** » 21 Apr 2009, 11:03

CarlosFerreira wrote:Renault: they've read the book on scientific method, saying that the best way to determine the cause of something is to test one suspect cause at a time, and immediately decided there was a better way. So, this weekend, they've removed KERS in both cars, put a normal diffuser in one, a double decker diffuser in the other and have ended up with no idea of what the effect of diffuser, weight distribution or KERS is. I suppose Piquet'll get blamed for that as well.

Given Flav's latest tirade, I'd say Jenson Button and Ross Brawn are more likely to be blamed.

by **LukeB** » 08 May 2009, 12:31

I think now's a good time to bring this back up again. With the fly-away races done for now and the number of teams running KERS falling rather then growing, is the damned thing a dead loss for this season at least? And where the hell is the Williams fly-wheel thing? It's pretty much the only major point of intrest in this new technology left. Have they quietly dumped it?

by **CarlosFerreira** » 08 May 2009, 19:32

LukeB wrote:I think now's a good time to bring this back up again. With the fly-away races done for now and the number of teams running KERS falling rather then growing, is the damned thing a dead loss for this season at least? And where the hell is the Williams fly-wheel thing? It's pretty much the only major point of intrest in this new technology left. Have they quietly dumped it?

It's not going well at the moment, is it?

The following is a google-translated piece of the Portuguese Autosport mag:

http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... l=pt&tl=en

Overall, it raises the point that BMW and McLaren want to compete against Williams and Magnetti Marelli as sole suppliers of the system in 2010. I can't see BMW benefiting in this particular issue by dropping the system for Spain and Monaco. The article also mentions Renault, Ferrari and Toyota want KERS to crawl into a hole and die.

Monaco, by the way, will be a real test: if McLaren runs it (FIAs new prodigal children...) they will be simply unpassable. There will be three races: one in front of both McLarens, one behind the first McLaren and another behind the second McLaren. Lots of people might have races compromised.

By the way, the FIA - which certainly reads F1Rejects - has announced that budget-capped teams will be able to either double the power or double the time of KERS usage per lap. It might be an advantage in that situation.

by **Ross Prawn** » 10 May 2009, 01:15

I am concerned about the safety aspect of KERS. And I don't mean zapping mechanics or toasting Kimi's privates.

But a system that means that 20-30% of the cars on the grid can accelerate much faster than the rest really increases the chances of a serious starting grid crash. And we could be talking about a big dangerous crash, cars in the air and everything.

I predict that something will happen, after which KERS will be banned at starts, and probably quietly dropped a little later.

by **watka** » 10 May 2009, 06:37

From what I've seen, KERS seems for more useful for defending than attacking, which means you get faster cars stuck behind KERS cars for some stints, which is exactly against FIA's aims for greater overtaking.

Think about it, if KERS is most effective at higher revs (i.e. near top speed), then it's not particularly effective coming straight out of corners. Say a KERS car is chasing a non-KERS car, the KERS car is heavier and therefore will fall behind in the corners. By the time KERS is fully effective, the non-KERS car will be too far ahead down the straight for any kind of overtake.

Say a non-KERS car is chasing a KERS car, the non-KERS car will close up in the corners, might get ahead on the straight, but then will get pegged back by the KERS car.

Somebody find a hole in my explanation because I'm bound to be wrong. :oops:

by **CarlosFerreira** » 10 May 2009, 09:11

watka wrote:Think about it, if KERS is most effective at higher revs (i.e. near top speed), then it's not particularly effective coming straight out of corners. Say a KERS car is chasing a non-KERS car, the KERS car is heavier and therefore will fall behind in the corners. By the time KERS is fully effective, the non-KERS car will be too far ahead down the straight for any kind of overtake.

Overall, no. Pilots and software guys realised the best time to use KERS is at relatively low speeds (typically 3rd/4th gear, out of medium speed corners), because at high speeds the drag just eats all the power for next to no advantage. The usage of KERS is typically at the moment when you are no longer traction limited.

by **Popi_Larrauri** » 10 May 2009, 09:25

I think we should wait and see. Too me, KERS is an excellent idea that still haven´t found the proper time and place (F1 squads uses brakes deisgned by third parties like Brembo, if i´m not wrong (this, despite they desing ventilation ducts and auxiliary parts) Faustus, correct me if i'm wrong.

I remember that Mansell said in 1989 that semi-automatic gearboxes (developed by Ferrari by then) were about to give no advantage at all to them... and even with other teams taking from a year or three to adopt it, finally, proved to be a must in order to be competitive.

Well... except for Forti in 1995, and their flying bananas!

Kudos...

Besides, at least, KERS creates that random factor that is doing so good so far this year to the season.

by **CarlosFerreira** » 10 May 2009, 09:29

Just a note: the KERS charging has nothing to do with the brakes, it recharges from the engine power that's wasted while braking.

by **Popi_Larrauri** » 10 May 2009, 09:32

CarlosFerreira wrote:By the way, the FIA - which certainly reads F1Rejects - has announced that budget-capped teams will be able to either double the power or double the time of KERS usage per lap. It might be an advantage in that situation.

er.... aaa..... you say that FIA READS ME?????

DAMN! All this time making nonsene in underwear with a beer can in front of my PC and Mosley been.. oh, god! Shame on me! shame, on me!

by **Popi_Larrauri** » 10 May 2009, 09:35

CarlosFerreira wrote:Just a note: the KERS charging has nothing to do with the brakes, it recharges from the engine power that's wasted while braking.

Funny, since I always heared that charged from braking, I thought that it had to be related to brakes. But, as you should know, as an engineer I´m a good accountant.

Anyway, About the rest of the post, I still stand

By the way, and putting to good use some of the typing in thes relpy: Then, wich is the difference of Williams Flywhell system? Forgive my innocence in matters like this.

F1Rejects.com

Who is online